To still like Jeremy Corbyn?

[malificent7]

I think it's right that he stepped down as the public clearly didn't get him...hated him even but i think he stands for the good in society. I actually think he is correctvto call out Israel for being bastards to Palestine and whilst ge apparently supports terroism ( ira), i think he is a negotiator ...the UK shafted Ireland hugely and the IRA is a consequence of that. We need people to negotiate with them.
I slso think remaining neutral on Brexit was the right thing to do but respecting the will of the people.

I don't hate Boris but he has got away with a lot. He has said many racist slurs, he hates women, he has multiple illegitimate children yet blames women, he switched sides re Brexit, oh and he's happy to trade with people like Saudi Arabia who have awful human rights. But apparently Jeremy is the bad one.

Marleyisme

Yes I can, when incomes are so disparate.

I believe we should all contribute what we are capable of for roughly equal benefit.

Doesn’t that sentence usually end, “to each, according to his need?”

All those grim difficult battling years in the 80s and 90s spent trying to make the Party electable again, only for the whole thing to happen all over again

Appalling isn't it? It's almost as if the extreme Left constantly plan for the next takeover in the hope that this time it'll be accepted

And maybe one day it will, and the lesson of what happens will need to be re-learned by another generation ... but at least it won't be the current bunch in charge if that happens

Why Labour chose Ed over David I do not know

I thought that was largely because the unions wanted Ed, so Ed is what they got?

Morality will come into most passionate debates, won’t it?

It’s invoked. I don’t think that’s necessarily correct.

I wonder if some people who perhaps never understood why people might vote conservative have had their eyes opened by the treatment normally doled out tory voters being dealt out to them for the same reason of differing values. Security is, after all, more usually a conservative value.

I wonder if some people who perhaps never understood why people might vote conservative have had their eyes opened by the treatment normally doled out tory voters being dealt out to them for the same reason of differing values. Security is, after all, more usually a conservative value.

I couldn’t say what those who have never understood conservatism think. I do understand it.

On a personal level, I don't have any great feelings for any of the leaders. However, I don't vote on whether I like the leader. I vote based on informed understanding of a party's policies ... and Labours policies this election were not aligned with the wants and needs of the nation. With huge political issues on the table (need we mention Brexit) they chose to focus on free broadband, free student costs and nationalism of infrastructure services. Their economics were not convincing and didn't pass the 'sniff test' for many - simply citing that you'll collect extra taxes needed from increasing business taxes doesn't hold weight and doesn't factor in the downstream implications of doing this (higher prices for consumers, multinational companies relocating and loss of jobs amongst other things).

It's incredibly sad overall. I usually vote Labour and this should in normal circumstances have been a slam dunk for Labour given the train wreck the Tories have made in the past few years... but allowing such far left, radical policies in their manifesto and not considering the Brexit implications have fucked it for them (and all of us, who now have to suffer another term of the Tories).

Doesn’t that sentence usually end, “to each, according to his need?”

If you like.

Yes I can, when incomes are so disparate.

So everyone who works for a business earns massive amounts?

How is it helped by high earners, earning less? The way is to improve social mobility. Not being everyone down.

And no I woildnt work 40 hours a week if I came out with the same as working 20 hours a week. I would spend those extra hours with my children. Why wouldnt I?

I take it you dont work? Or that you work, live in in a one room studio with no luxuries and support a family down the street? How come you have internet?

I take it you dont work? Or that you work, live in in a one room studio with no luxuries and support a family down the street? How come you have internet?

My personal circumstances aren’t relevant to this debate. I voted for what I wanted to happen, end of.

I don’t mind that you did too.

It's almost as if the extreme Left constantly plan for the next takeover in the hope that this time it'll be accepted

I think they say that Socialism is the worst political idea that never goes away.

My personal circumstances aren’t relevant to this debate. I voted for what I wanted to happen, end of.

Of course they are. If not you are acting in morally by your own standards.

You would mind if I reduced my working hours. I would pay far less into the communal pot and would be refusing to work to provide for other people. I would be working for my families need only.

I believe we should all contribute what we are capable of for roughly equal benefit

I don’t want to live in a society where some people live high and some low

Unless I've misunderstood, that sounds worryingly like substituting equality of outcome for equality of opportunity ... and in a free society the first will never happen

Marleyisme

Well, you have no idea what I do or don’t do in order to reconcile my morals with my circumstances. I don’t want to discuss that here because we are talking about the political level: what I believe everyone should be doing.

With respect, it really sounds like you voted for the right party. You are Tory through and through. Why do you keep talking about yourself as if you’re a centrist?

Unless I've misunderstood, that sounds worryingly like substituting equality of outcome for equality of opportunity ... and in a free society the first will never happen

You haven’t misunderstood at all. I believe in state action to reduce inequalities of outcome.

I believe in state action to reduce inequalities of outcome

That's fair enough since we're all entitled to our views, but I honestly doubt you'll ever carry the majority with you for such an agenda

Opportunities, yes - outcome, definitely not

Not to get involved in the argument but the tories are currently a fairly centralist party. So it would be expected to hear a tory voter who sounds centralist.

I think what's happened is the left have went so far left, that even the central position looks so far away they now think it's far right. It's not. It's centralist, hence its popularity. It's just when you're so far on the left it looks otherwise.

And yes, personal circumstances usually are important as for some people it does drive their voting ideals. Not all, or even the majority, as we have seen by millions of labour voters turning, but for some people their personal need will drive their politics.

That's fair enough since we're all entitled to our views, but I honestly doubt you'll ever carry the majority with you for such an agenda

It carried ten million people. That is exactly what Corbyn’s manifesto sought to do.

With respect, it really sounds like you voted for the right party. You are Tory through and through. Why do you keep talking about yourself as if you’re a centrist?

I didn't vote Tory? Why are you saying your circumstances arent relevant, but saying my voting choice is?

No, I happen to live a life that I believe is morally right.

I could have a much larger house. But choose not to and lots of my spare time and disposable income goes to charity. Because I think that's the moral thing to do.

Why an I tory through and through? Because I wont work more even though it wouldnt earn me more and opt to spend that time with my child?

Which also doesnt gel with your support of a 4 day week. Surely people should work more to pay for more people?

I dont live one way and then want the country to work another way.

Puzzledandpissedoff

And here’s why, Puzzled: let’s ignore for a moment the issues of inherited material advantage (trust funds, inheritances, private school, better dental care, early and high quality opportunities to travel, do sports, tutors, diet etc) and assume that two people are roughly on a level playing field. One has the intellect to become a surgeon, one a grave digger. One will earn six figures and the other low five figures.

Why? If both of those people are hard working, good people with similar needs (food, shelter, family, healthcare etc) I don’t understand why the luck of the draw should dictate that one of them should be so much wealthier than the other.

And obviously that’s a very simplistic example, but I honestly don’t.

It carried ten million people.

Ten million people did not vote to "contribute what we are capable of for roughly equal benefit". I think you would struggle to find a Labour MP who endorsed that opinion.

Marleyisme

Apologies, I thought you said you voted Tory. Farage?

Everything you have said has espoused individualism and the freedom of the market. Those seem to be your values. So yes, I think you sound like a natural Tory. I don’t hate you for that. I just think you’re wrong.

merrymouse

I think the manifesto did (roughly) endorse that opinion.

The only thing I don't agree with in your post is where you say Boris has one or more illegitimate children.

It's not up for debate. It's a fact, whether or not you like the term (and I agree that it's an unpleasant one).

I don’t understand why the luck of the draw should dictate that one of them should be so much wealthier than the other.

Why bother spending years as a junior doctor and go through all the stress of being a surgeon if you could earn the same amount of money
doing something less stressful with more regular hours?

I think the manifesto did (roughly) endorse that opinion.

Which manifesto? The one for the Communist party of Great Britain? If you honestly think the Labour Party manifesto was suggesting a roughly equal rate of pay for all jobs, it's amazing they did as well as they did.