DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

@Sannapaws You'd struggle, yet you point op to Mermaids, and Stonewall??

Can you imagine a loving parent saying this to their child who was expressing either a desire to change sex or at least to identify as the opposite sex

Yes I am a loving parent it is exactly what I'd say

Me too. I have a gender non conforming child who is quirky, fun and happy to be different and not accepting of the social stereotypes forced upon girls to their detriment. She’s having non of it.

This is despite other adults insisting on telling her she is ‘like a boy’. I wonder how long she will continue to reject their sadly limited view of acceptable behaviour for girls, because this ridiculous ideology is now everywhere.

Being a good parent means telling the truth, setting appropriate boundaries and encouraging your child to celebrate being just themselves. It is society that needs to change. We should not be telling our children their healthy bodies are wrong, then change them in order to better fit rigid gender role stereotypes. That’s the real conversion therapy going on.

differentnameforthis yes, because unlike the rabid transphobes that lurk on Mumsnet I don't think getting advice from people with experience of this harms your child in someway.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis that’s a malicious distortion of Mermaid’s message. And the “biological self” and how it matches on to social identity is a lot more complex than you seem to suggest.

The trouble is that GIDS have no clue why there has been such an exponential rise in the number of young people coming to them over the past few years and they have no clue what the long term outcomes are for children who are 'affirmed' and thus started on a medical pathway.

They literally do not know what they are doing, or why.

This is available for 14 more days.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000bpx3/newsnight-25112019

Elizabeth van Horn interview starts at 27:12. There is also a short film about detransitioners before the interview starting at 13:21.

Also, no point anyone getting on my back about the advice I just gave to the OP.

I've followed this advice with my daughter, who had GD a few years ago. She is doing well in terms of her mental health, understands that she can present as feminine or as masculine as she likes, and her physical health, including her sexual function and fertility is intact. She is in a good place now, as a grown woman, to decide how she presents. She is in a much better place to understand and balance the risks involved in transitioning (socially, emotionally, physically). She uses the women's facilities, as she is a woman, and sometimes the unisex provisions too.

Decisions with permanent consequences do NOT have to be made at age 15. It is absolutely OK to empathise with feelings of wanting to be the opposite sex, without losing one's grip on reality, and giving your child the utterly bizarre message that they are now, and have always been, the other sex.

@CodenameVillanelle I am very curious as to your definition of a “male body” and “female brain”, as well as how these relate to gender and identity. Centuries of scientists have been debating these questions and the jury is still out on all of them. In the meantime what you are expressing is a fear / refusal of difference: the route of all social prejudice and discrimination.

Bizawit please explain it to me then in a 'non-malicious' way as nobody yet has been able to! I am all ears, because what I have seen from Mermaids so far merely endorses gender stereotypes.

Sanna there are lots of people on here with experience of having trans and gender non-conforming people in their families, and being gender-nonconforming themselves [waves] ergo it is a safe space. Just not a blindly affirming one. Questioning & challenging is healthy.

Oh and there’s no “nice way” of telling someone that they are not valid. And being transphobic is never nice. HTH.

I don't think getting advice from people with experience of this

Which is why I shared :)

Frankly, a lot of the 'helpful' advice being shared here by posters who see themselves as pro-trans is advice that did not help me, and did not help either of my two dysphoric children.

This is a complex topic, and the answers are likewise complex. Slowing things down as much as possible, rather than rushing in to make huge life changes, is one of the ways we can make space for our dysphoric children to explore their complex feelings.

I mean Bizawit the Mermaids Genderbread Person is bollocks, isn't it.

www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/assets/media/Genderbread-Person-3.3-HI-RES.pdf

How you express and feel internally, masculine or feminine, does not affect your biological sex. And - even if you have DSD - your biological sex is not 'on a spectrum'.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis it’s very simple: mermaids are vehemently apposed to gender stereotypes and imposing these on children. They also recognised the existence of transgender people, including trans children, and they think that the rights and wellbeing of trans children are important- so they fight for the rights of trans children to be loved, respected and valued members of society.

@Sannapaws

Advice from the very people who think puberty blockers and surgery are the only answer?

Advice from a woman who took her child to Europe for gender surgery?

That ISN'T harming children?

Once again, do you advocate for experimenting on animals?

*recognise

Yes we must be careful not to maliciously distort Mermaids' message.

So here is the full context for Barbie, GI Joe, jelly babies etc. - oh yes, and the dimmer switch - that was my favourite bit:

docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/edit

docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/edit

there’s no “nice way” of telling someone that they are not valid.

Children with GD are just as valid as children without GD. I can't imagine anyone sits their child with GD down and tells them 'honey, you're just not valid.'

Families with experience of GD will know that many difficult conversations must be had. Setting off down a path that may end up in SRS, destroying adult sexual function and fertility, radically reducing the pool of people available to form relationships with, the sheer impossibility of changing sex, lack of research into long-term affects of taking cross sex hormones for decades + - these are not things anyone wants to discuss with their 15 year old.

And yet, to be responsible, we must. Blind affirmation is not in the best interests of minors.

Bizawit in a nutshell, Mermaids tell children that if they like 'feminine' stuff then they are girls and vice versa.

Gender stereotypes are about expecting males and females to think, look and act in certain ways.

The whole idea of 'feeling like a woman' is a gender stereotype.

She is in a good place now, as a grown woman, to decide how she presents. She is in a much better place to understand and balance the risks involved in transitioning (socially, emotionally, physically).

You say you did watching and waiting, and can only present as likes but not be trans, - so was just curious as you say she's now older and more aware, if she suddenly turned around and said "actually, I still want to transition" you'd be OK and supportive of that?

I just noticed the link in part 1 to the Barbie/GI Joe gender scale image no longer works, so here it is.

ALL children deserve to be loved, respected and valued members of society, your implication that we don't believe that is offensive.

By challenging the idea of gender identity being more important than biological sex, we are not undermining people's right to exist, or denying them human rights. That's bigoted scaremongering.

Oh and there’s no “nice way” of telling someone that they are not valid. And being transphobic is never nice. HTH.

Biz why do you think it’s “validating” to tell children they can change sex?

Last thought for the OP - our children are males. They have male bodies and have been socialised as males. No matter what they may decide to do with those bodies as adults, their maleness is a given.

Would we give our gender-conforming, non-dysphoric boys the message that they can just take what they need from the girls ? No ? Then why on earth would we give that message to our gender non-conforming, or gender dysphoric boys ?

If they need, for a time, a space that is not male, we can help them advocate for a third space. A staffroom loo they have permission to use is one example of a third space. This respects their feelings (and their safety, if this is an issue), but doesn't give them the pernicious message that they can just what they want from the girls, for no other reason than that they feel they need it.

Raising decent sons doesn't stop just because your son identifies with femininity.

@Bizawit it’s very simple: mermaids are vehemently apposed to gender stereotypes and imposing these on children

Are you sure?? They make their money out of gender stereotypes!! They wouldn't have a business model if they didn't believe in gender stereotypes.

Sorry, didn't add name to make it clear who I was addressing - it was in response to JanesKettles comment

Advice from the very people who think puberty blockers and surgery are the only answer?

• They don’t think this.

Advice from a woman who took her child to Europe for gender surgery?

• Have you listened to what her child - who is now a happy and articulate adult, and perfectly able to speak for herself - has to say about that?