DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

If you tell a trans person there is no legitimate way to be trans, you are telling them their person is not valid. That’s all I meant to say. It was in response to a previous poster saying that there were “nice” and “not nice” ways of saying this.

if she suddenly turned around and said "actually, I still want to transition" you'd be OK and supportive of that?

My goal has always been to get my children to adulthood in as healthy a way as possible, with as many options open to them as possible.

Once our children are adults, they take on the task of making choices for themselves and their own lives.

If dd decided to transition, I would accept that I had given her the best possible situation from which to do that. It would not be the outcome I wished for her - I would prefer her to be able to love and accept her body and her femaleness - and I expect I would grieve for her.

And then we would go on being mother and adult child.

Oh and there’s no “nice way” of telling someone that they are not valid.

When did telling a child they are valid just as they are, that they are amazing just as they are and that their healthy body is a fantastic thing just as it is become telling people they're "not valid"? It's the exact opposite of that!

Bizawit is English not your first language, perhaps? I can't see why you'd have made such huge misunderstandings about the words people have written otherwise.

Bizawit people can express and identify as they choose - but that doesn't give them the right to take away other people's established protections and rights, like sex-based rights. It doesn't give them licence to dictate how they should be regarded, over and above everybody else's basic human rights, and it doesn't mean that people who don't recognise 'gender identity' are hateful bigots who should be criminalised.
Nobody has the right to dictate what other people should believe. We must all be respectful of other people's circumstances and rights.
We are all 'valid', by virtue of us existing.
I have the right to say that just because somebody 'feels' like a woman, inside, that doesn't mean they then have access to sex-based rights for females. I can recognise their individual identity, but I don't have to change my beliefs, or give up my rights, because of it.

Mermaids tell children that if they like 'feminine' stuff then they are girls and vice versa.

• No they don’t.

If you tell a trans person there is no legitimate way to be trans, you are telling them their person is not valid.

But what does “being trans” mean in this context? As a parent you can’t tell your child they can change sex, so how can you legitimatise your child’s experience without lying to them?

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIcebergoh insult my English language comprehension. What an effective and clever way of making your point.

I have the right to say that just because somebody 'feels' like a woman, inside, that doesn't mean they then have access to sex-based rights for females. I can recognise their individual identity, but I don't have to change my beliefs, or give up my rights, because of it

And this mum of trans kids says hear, hear, you absolutely do have all those rights. And my male children, dysphoric or not dysphoric, will not leave home without an understanding of this.

Bizawit tell me more then, because I am obviously misinterpreting the genderbread person.
Is one's sex defined then by one's gender dysphoria, or lack thereof?

Actually Bizawit don't worry. I think this thread has been derailed by me enough and you are under no obligation to represent/interpret Mermaids perspectives for me.
I don't think we will change each other's minds so to save time going over old ground again and in the hope OP can get her thread back on track, I'm out.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I see where you are coming from, but it’s so devastating to me that, somehow, so many women have got the message that by respecting the existence and rights of trans people they are putting their own at risk. Accepting trans people doesn’t need to put other’s rights and protections at risk, and the only people “dictating how others should be regarded”, are those who are refusing to acknowledge that it is possible to be trans!

I am female. I am not trans. I am passionate about the rights of women and girls. I’m passionate about the importance of being able to discuss how my gendered body affects my experience in the world. None of this means I need to stand in opposition to trans women. Quite the opposite.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis it’s a shame because you seem like quite a reasonable person, and, perhaps, if we had the appropriate forum, time and opportunity to discuss we might be able to find some agreement/ common ground. I guess these are the limits of social media.

Yes, apologies, OP for detailing the thread.

MN is notoriously transphobic and the wrong place to ask! You won’t get many balanced views

RTFT before commenting Mulledwine otherwise your time posting is wasted.

respecting the existence and rights of trans people

Actually, it's entirely possible to believe that trans people should have rights. For example, I don't think trans people should be discriminated against in employment or housing generally*. I think trans people should not be discriminated against in terms of accessing medical care.

None of the above involves a literal belief that transwomen are women. Even less does it involve a belief that male children expressing an interest in presenting femininity should be fast-tracked into the foreclosed identity, trans.

A person can believe, like me, that sex is immutable, that it matters far more than gender, that innate gender identity is pretty much non-evidenced, religious bollocks, that there is a conflict of rights between transwomen and women at some times AND believe that transexual people are entitled to the same rights as people who are not transexual.

*except where exceptions are legal and proportionate, such as women's prisons and women's refuges.

It's no co-incidence that the transexual people I know who are the most grounded, the most successful in life, and the most accepted, are those who don't require others to hold a literal belief in sex-change (the transwomen are well aware they are male), and who are against child transitioning, because they know its a big freaking deal, and not something you choose unless you absolutely have to.

Well Bizawit one last thing before I finally have to get back to work then - how do you protect the sex-based rights of women and girls, if it is true that trans women are women? How do I request a female HCP to remove my IUD? How do I feel sure that my DD is in a female-only communal changing room after her swim comps? How do we stop trans women prisoners being housed in the female estate?
I think this is all possible, if we can protect the sex-based rights of women.
Trans services are dire, I understand that, particularly health care. Trans people find themselves often abused & marginalised & threatened (by men), being gender non-conforming is challenging, I completely understand that. But women's sex-based rights are not up for debate, and trans women are not women. They are men who 'feel like a woman' and are living their lives usually according to stereotypical female presentation and habits (whether out of preference or a need to 'fit in' or both). That's fine and up to them, but they are not women.
That distinction is not hateful or erasing or discriminatory. It is factual & necessary to protect vulnerable women & girls.

(I can't resist it, i feel so passionately about this topic! Sorry OP!)

I agree. I haven't come across people saying trans people shouldn't have rights. They should. That doesn't mean they have the same rights on all occasions as the females and males they identify with rather than those of their actual sex. People here are strongly for third spaces. We could all be allies if it weren't for the insistence that people are able to magically change sex or live as a man or a woman without resorting to gender stereotypes. So much of what Stonewall has pushed - the likes of bearded Alex Drummond literally being female etc - are what has damaged trans rights.

Wearing females clothes & trying to behave female in secret inside ones home

Is completely different to doing the same outside the home at school, work, every day life !

Trans people are not particularly vulnerable where I live. For example, no transwoman was killed last year where I live, but two women a week were.

Neither of my kids has ever been hassled for going out looking like the opposite sex.

Youth mental health services have many trans youth programs.

There are many people far more vulnerable that middle class trans teens, at least where I am.

Even suicide rates are overplayed; transmasc girls are at risk, as are bisexual girls, but the boys are doing quite well unless they have co-morbid mental health issues. Middle aged women (those dreadful c*s!) are actually the fastest growing segment of the population in terms of suicidality!

So all this rights business can be a bit overblown. The only right transwomen don't have is the right to the very small number of spaces set aside for women - refuges, prisons, sports. That's OK. They're not women. They do have all the same rights as others of their sex.

Let's have a fact based conversation, if we're having one at all.
The OP's son is vulnerable on account of his ASD; his liking of femininity is not actually a huge risk to him in suburban UK.

Much of the rhetoric around vulnerability comes from global figures being used indiscriminately - a black trans prostitute in Brazil IS vulnerable, in a way the OP's son is not.

But what does “being trans” mean in this context? As a parent you can’t tell your child they can change sex, so how can you legitimatise your child’s experience without lying to them?

In this context trans means having a gender identity that does not align with one’s sex assignment. You legitimise your child’s experience by hearing them when they tell you who they are and by loving and supporting them in the things that make them happy.

To all those people saying you can support trans rights whilst denying trans women the right to live and be recognised as women- no you can’t. That is a violation of their rights. It’s like when homophobic people say “i love gay people- love the sinner not the sin”. It’s toxic, it’s disingenuous and it’s gas lighting.

Trans people are not particularly vulnerable where I live.

Wow - just..... ok.
Do you speak for all of them? How would you even know who was vulnerable and who wasn't? Just because your kids can go out without being hassled doesn't mean that that would automatically be the case for all.
You don't know of antybeing killed in your area so that means they're not vulnerable?
As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure where to start - it's of course terrible that so many women die, but your post seems awfully minimising of trans abuse and I'm sure (well, I hope) that you didn't mean it to come across like that

What is your issue with my post?

In this context trans means having a gender identity that does not align with one’s sex assignment.

Putting aside for a moment the fact sex is observed not assigned, how does a gender identity express itself, other than via society's gendered stereotypes of dress or appearance? (Genuine question not goady - I don't feel I have a particular gender identity, I just know I'm a woman.)

I see an awful lot of threats and foul language aimed at women (and also to a lesser degree, to men and transwomen) who question, debate and stand up for women's rights.

I have seen:

• baseball bats painted pink, white and blue with (some with fake? barbed wire wrapped around them ). There's even websites where you can buy them
• transwomen posed with them in news articles and on marches
• mock guillotines with references to T*s being carried on marches
• memes of hanging women, again references to T*s
• people posed on social media in t-shirts with anti women slogans and (fake?) blood stains,
• tweets from women telling women to 'suck my balls'...

This is the narrative of the loudest voices, and it is most certainly anti woman.

Now tell me again who is under threat?