DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

OP - this is not a safe space for opinions and advice on a possible trans child. Try Stonewall and Mermaids, there should also be a LGBT counselling service in your area for you and your DC so that you can talk about what you're going through. And dealing with practically issues such as changing rooms. My advice on that front however, right now, would be for your DC to use unisex facilities where possible until they have found a path forward through this.

LGBT Switchboard isn a good place to chat, non-judgmental and they'll be able to recommend a service for your DC, somewhere they can talk openly about their feelings without being encouraged to make a 'decision' about anything right now.

this is not a safe space
By which Sanna means "we won't tell you your child is certainly trans and must be told they are a girl and can use all girls' spaces and should be proceeding immediately to puberty blockers".

Do LGBT Switchboard offer suggestions that a feminine boy could be gay? Or that he could just be a feminine boy? If not, they are not non-judgemental, they are pushing an agenda.

I haven't rtft. I apologies. I think ASD teens are sucked into this.
I believe they think they're weird and are putting themselves with the current out of the normal crowd.
My own DD nearly 11 ASD came out as gay during rainbow month aged 9, she is part of the LGBTQ community as they are different like her. I thought no problem your gay your gay. She gave up girlie clothes 2 years ago.
We were chatting about the trans DC in her school. I said I think it's a MH illness and would bring her to talk to someone if she wanted to change gender.
I know it's a phase of confusion with her. I won't be allowing her follow this crowd. There has been nothing Male about her no tell tale signs.
We are really confusing our young people with self identity.
I do know one FTM 11 year old and she has always seemed a real tom boy.

This is a very interesting thread. Fantastic advice.
I hope it doesn't get abusive.

So just for a fucking change, the transhaters are out in force. It's so predictable.

"Your son is not, and never will be female."

Can you imagine a loving parent saying this to their child who was expressing either a desire to change sex or at least to identify as the opposite sex? And don't bother telling me how it's not possible to change sex and it's a biological fact - that's been done to death.

I honestly think that a bit of fucking kindness and tolerance is needed on mumsnet when it comes to this topic. I know there are cases of men pretending to be women to get access to females. I also know that 50 years ago, when homosexual was considered synonymous with paedophile, that some gay men actually were child abusers. That didn't make it right to cast suspicion over all of them. I also know that some people become teachers or priests or youth workers in order to get access to children. There will, sadly, always be sex abusers, but the comforting fact is they are in the minority, and it is never reasonable to tarnish a group of people with one shared characteristic because occasionally a minority of them do hideous things.

drspouse - the LGBT switchboard is an advice line for LGBT people who need advice, support or just someone to talk to. They don't tell people to be anything, and that includes trans. It's sure as hell a better place for the OP to approach at this point than Mumsnet as they will have heard of and experience every aspect of being or possibly being LGBT and everything in between. And to answer your question, yes they are aware that someone can be a feminine straight boy or a feminine gay boy as well as trans.

trans people don’t exist, that being trans is a fallacy/ a lie/ not possible/ incoherent/ illegitimate etc etc etc. That’s not helpful advice, that’s ignorant and transphobic

It's not 'phobic' to know that children can't literally be born in the wrong body or that male bodies can't have female brains. The way that this message is imparted can be kind or not so kind but the basic facts remain.

isshoes I can't see any evidence of trans haters. We're all happy to see people dress and behave as they like (within the law) and are completely tolerant of this idea. The way you dress and behave does not determine your sex though. The people who are intolerant are those who think certain ways of dressing are behaving mean you are one sex or the other.

*or behaving

@ItsChristmaaaaaaaaas I beg to differ - there are pages of people rubbishing and belittling the notion of being trans. See the first responses to the OP as classic examples.

Has it ever occurred to you that the social aspects you speak of could be that with the erosion of rigid, traditional gender roles and modes of expression, and the increasing visibility of trans identities, more young people are feeling safe and comfortable to come out?

I have a feminine straight boy 🤷‍♀️ the last place I would be getting advice is stonewall my personal opinion is they care about headlines and drama but not the children

isshoes but he won't ever be female. What he can be is as feminine as he likes and feels comfortable with. How is selling him a lie going to help a confused teen with ASD? How is that a kindness? Are you aware of the long term Swedish study that found suicidal ideation increased after transition, as the realisation set in that even surgery could not turn transgender people into something they wanted to be?

How can it possibly be wrong to set out the facts, gently and kindly - you are a boy, you will always be male but that doesn't mean you have to present as a stereotypical boy if you don't feel those stereotypes fit you, look at these icons from the past who embraced their androgyny...now let's explore exactly what it is that's making you feel you might be a girl and what that might mean? What is wrong or unkind or hateful about that supportive but honest approach?

Has it ever occurred to you that the social aspects you speak of could be that with the erosion of rigid, traditional gender roles and modes of expression, and the increasing visibility of trans identities, more young people are feeling safe and comfortable to come out?

Actually in many ways I think gender stereotypes have become even more rigid for young people - toys and clothes are generally much more gendered now than they were when I was a child, and there is a particular very groomed 'look' prevalent on social media which it often feels like young girls are expected to aspire to.

@CodenameVillanelle I meant sex, not gender. A typo.

I agree gender stereotypes are far more rigid than they were when I was a child in the '70s and '80s. Toys and children's clothes have definitely gone backwards.

Your son is not, and never will be female

Can you imagine a loving parent saying this to their child who was expressing either a desire to change sex or at least to identify as the opposite sex
Yes I am a loving parent it is exactly what I'd say.

Can you imagine a loving parent saying this to their child who was expressing either a desire to change sex or at least to identify as the opposite sex

Yes I am a loving parent it is exactly what I'd say.

And, if I were a parent, then that's exactly what I'd say. Where's the love in telling your children that they can be whatever they want to be? They can't. And they need to deal with that.

When I was little, I wanted to be a princess and told my mum that I wanted to marry Prince Edward (I know, I know . She told me in no uncertain terms that that wouldn't happening. 40 years on and I've come to terms with it

Bizawit it's companies like Mermaids, with their Barbie/GI Joe scale, who are telling children that if they identify with stereotypes not normally associated with their sex, then it's likely they are 'born in the wrong body' and they are actually trans.
That's the complete opposite of shaking up rigid gender roles.
We need to dissociate people's preference for expression and activities from the physical reality of their bodies. We need to fight gender stereotypes, and encourage people to accept and understand their biological selves. That's what loving parents will do.

Kids can think loads of amazing things are medically possible. I would think it cruel beyond belief to tell my child they could physically become the opposite sex. Just as I wouldn't tell a cancer sufferer there was a magic cure.
I'd instead explore what they would feel comfortable doing in changing the way they present and what benefits they think that might bring. I also wouldn't lie and say it's an easy solution.

isshoes it's impossible to change sex. People can present themselves as being of the opposite sex and change certain aspects of their bodies to make them feel more comfortable (hopefully), that doesn't mean they will become that sex. Part of being a loving parent is helping them to accept reality, being honest with them, instead of just telling them what they want to hear.

I feel for you OP, I'm gay but honestly would struggle with my child telling me this as I know that it could lead to a long and difficult path in life for them. Speak to someone sooner rather than later.

Sanna what did you mean when you said this is not a 'safe space' to hear opinions about trans children?

Is it only 'safe' when people affirm trans identities? If the OP is seeking a wide range of opinions, why does that make an internet forum an unsafe space? A little resilience is called for I think. I haven't seen any abuse or threatening behaviour on this thread.

Can you imagine a loving parent saying this to their child who was expressing either a desire to change sex or at least to identify as the opposite sex

My daughter hasn't expressed that desire, but as a pre-teen with ASD and an ex friend who badgered her into doing an online gender quiz made up by some spoof site (with Qs like "do you like pink, do you like blue, do you like dolls, do you like trains) which then told her she was male, I say it at every opportunity.

Said ex friend also told her to transition with her, (FTM) and told her to keep it a secret from me. She didn't, obviously.

So yeah, I say it all time as well as things like gender is a BS social construct. That she is female, and her body is amazing the way it is, and the only time you need to worry about toys being for a certain "gender" is when you use your genitals to make them work.

I honestly think that a bit of fucking kindness

Where's the "fucking kindness" in telling a vulnerable child that all their problem will disappear if they transition to the opposite sex? Lying to them, giving them life changing hormones and life changing surgery to meet some unreachable ideal that most of them will not actually find any comfort in? Where is the kindness is that?

Where is the kindness in peddling the "live daughter/dead son" narrative, that is nothing but BS propaganda, by those with an agenda?

You are advocating and supporting experimenting on children.

Tell me, are you also for experimenting on animals?

Frog

In a very similar position, minus the ASD.

My suggestion, from experience, is that clothes and makeup - anything that comes under the heading 'presentation' is totally fine. I don't give a toss if my feminine son wears a dress and nail polish. Rock on.

Carefully assess if child is being exposed to homophobia at school or at home. Feminine boys need to know that it's Ok to be gay (if they are).

Look for professional health care from a psychologist or psychiatrist outside the gender clinics. This is so your child can be assessed, treated and supported for any co-morbid mental health issues or trauma going on. Your child may or may not be given a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

If your child is diagnosed, and has significant distress attached to that diagnosis, seek out DBT therapy for them if you can. This is especially important if they have any suicidal ideation. DBT is an effective treatment for suicidality.

Delay any medical (definitely surgical) treatments as you can. This is because developmentally, teens are in a process of identity formation. You don't want to foreclose on their identity prematurely. Let them get to adulthood with as many options, including transition, still open to them as possible.

Some watchful waiting families are prepared to use female names and female pronouns for their male child; we don't do that in our home, as we dont feel it is in our child's best long term interests. I have been clear with ds that transition (social, medical, surgical) is a huge decision, and one best made with a healthy, adult, cognitively developed mind.

Personally, I do not endorse ds using female facilities. He uses single stall unisex provision by preference. Luckily there is plenty of such provision where we are.

It is entirely possible to support a child who is playing with gender expression, or even a child who has gender dysphoria, without moving too fast.

Good luck with it all.