DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

[OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg]

If the need TW have for using women's spaces is fear for their physical safety if forced to share with men, why aren't third spaces acceptable?

[isshoes]

But the tragic deaths of women at the hands of men are the fault of the murderers, not the trans community as a whole. And also, some of the women abused or killed by their partners will be in same-sex relationships.

We can play around with statistics all we like. We've already seen that there are issues in relying on data for crime rates against both women and trans people. Both of these groups are vulnerable for a variety of reasons - some shared, some different. I don't claim to know the answers in terms of access to toilets or changing rooms, prisons or hospitals. What I do think is that the absolute insistence on continuously referring to 'biological facts', the refusal of some people to stop referring to transwomen as men or vice versa, and the endless hate-filled rants about trans people riding roughshod offer the rights of women don't actually help anyone, or contribute to finding a solution. This debate will continue to be as binary as you believe sex to be until we reach a common understanding that the real issue here is those actually committing or attempting to commit crimes, not people who by dint of their biological sex and/or gender identity could be out to do you harm. And I would say this to those on both sides of the debate. The extremists on both sides are using their own agendas (feminism and trans rights) as moral justification for attacking, belittling, and discriminating against the other side.

('Imagine' by John Lennon plays out to fade)

[Datun]

This debate will continue to be as binary as you believe sex to be until we reach a common understanding that the real issue here is those actually committing or attempting to commit crimes,

Men. Not people. Men. Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime. It's really not complicated.

Women want a space away from men when they are vulnerable. Irrespective of how those men identify.

If men stop committing all the sex crime, then you might have a point. But until then, Men need to keep out of women's spaces.

If some men think that's unfair, that's nothing to do with women and not their problem to solve.

[OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg]

And also, some of the women abused or killed by their partners will be in same-sex relationships.

In the most recent ONS data set available (to end March 2018), 94% of murder suspects in the UK were male. Can we please stop with this false, homophobic narrative that lesbians pose just as much threat to women as men do?

[isshoes]

It's not homophobic. It would be sexist to suggest that all domestic abuse is carried out by men.

[Thinkingabout1t]

isshoes no one is saying that men commit ALL domestic violence or ALL murders, just the vast majority. Please stop trying to make out that lesbians are a threat to other women.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

It would be sexist to suggest that all domestic abuse is carried out by men.

And it's dishonest to ignore that men commit nearly all of it.

[isshoes]

isshoes no one is saying that men commit ALL domestic violence or ALL murders, just the vast majority. Please stop trying to make out that lesbians are a threat to other women.

Please stop trying suggesting I have tried to make that out. I haven't done so for a moment. I have highlighted that not ALL cases of domestic abuse are perpetrated by men against women. Some of those women who are the victims will have abusive female partners. That's just a fact.

[isshoes]

And it's dishonest to ignore that men commit nearly all of it.

No one's doing that.

[CrossingTheAlpsInOtley]

You know like with the general election-if your only source of opinion was Mumsnet, you would have believed that Corbyn would be swept into number ten, crowned with laurels?

Well, it's a bit like that with supporting your teenage son who wants to be a girl. On Mumsnet, lots of people will sympathise but outside this bubble, in the real world, most people won't.

Steer clear of pressure groups like Mermaids and maybe encourage your son to wait before taking such a drastic step. Maybe he's gay or effeminate. Neither mean he's a girl!

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Read your own post back!

some of the women abused or killed by their partners will be in same-sex relationships.

It would be sexist to suggest that all domestic abuse is carried out by men.

I have highlighted that not ALL cases of domestic abuse are perpetrated by men against women. Some of those women who are the victims will have abusive female partners. That's just a fact.

Completely ignoring the responses you get:

Most, many, the vast majority of violent offences committed against anybody are committed by men.

Transwomen do not lose their male pattern violence.

Transwomen are not more vulnerable than anyone else, are measurably less so.

You can choose to dismiss those facts, dismiss stats that don't agree with you, dismiss the voices of women who have been discussing this, posting data and discussing its accuracy for years. But that won't make you right!

PLEASE have a look at the various 'Break it down for me' threads. They contain a lot of information and analysis of stats, claims form all sorts of organisations and research.

[isshoes]

*Completely ignoring the responses you get:

Most, many, the vast majority of violent offences committed against anybody are committed by men.
*
I haven't disputed that

Transwomen do not lose their male pattern violence.

I'd say that may depend to a certain extent on the hormone treatment but there's probably some truth in this

Transwomen are not more vulnerable than anyone else, are measurably less so.

I never said they were more vulnerable. I've acknowledged that the stats seem to show that a lower percentage of transwomen are murdered than other groups. That doesn't mean they are 'measurably less' vulnerable by any stretch.

You can choose to dismiss those facts, dismiss stats that don't agree with you, dismiss the voices of women who have been discussing this, posting data and discussing its accuracy for years. But that won't make you right!

Likewise none of this makes you right. Regardless of what you claim, nothing about this debate is fact. There are facts underlying some of the arguments, but those facts are used and interpreted as each side sees fit. There is a great deal in this matter that is based on individual experiences and subjective views. You don't own the truth any more than I do. It doesn't matter how many times someone says 'it's simple' 'it's not complicated' or 'it's a biological fact'. We will never agree on this issue. The best we can hope for is that the powers that be are able to find reasonable solutions to the issues being debated.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Good grief!

[isshoes]

Good point

[Thinkingabout1t]

One last effort.

isshoes, you say “Regardless of what you claim, nothing about this debate is fact. There are facts underlying some of the arguments, but those facts are used and interpreted as each side sees fit.”

But facts remain facts, regardless of how people use them.

Most violence is committed by men. A very small percentage is committed by women. Transwomen commit as much violence as other men.

These are not opinions. They are facts, backed by statistics from courts and prisons.

[Datun]

Regardless of what you claim, nothing about this debate is fact.

Dear lord.

[HandsOffMyRights]

Some mental gymnastics going on there is
And still we are not gaslit my mythical thinking over evidence-based reality.

[flowery]

”It doesn't matter how many times someone says 'it's simple' 'it's not complicated' or 'it's a biological fact'. We will never agree on this issue.”

I imagine very similar things were said when people believed the earth was flat but scientists said no it’s not and here’s why. But denying scientific fact ought to be something consigned to the dark ages, not something we see in 21st century UK.

[Datun]

I'm sorry isshoes, but this right here is the problem.

Firstly the contradiction

Regardless of what you claim, nothing about this debate is fact. There are facts underlying some of the arguments

Then the assertion that truth changes from one person to the next. That's belief.

You don't own the truth any more than I do.

And this is the problem with the ideology.

You've been presented with facts, irrefutable facts. But you don't like them. So you end up saying it's not about facts and what's real, in an effort to maintain an opinion that is based on fiction.

[isshoes]

Whatever. I think we're done here.

OP if you ever return to this thread, I wish you and your child all the very best in navigating this road you now find yourselves on.

[HandsOffMyRights]

So true, Datun.
Good luck OP

[Datun]

Good luck OP

Yes good luck, OP, and sorry if the thread got derailed.

The problem with this maintaining of fiction, is that you are setting your child up for a lifetime of relentless disappointment.

People will not deny reality. Some will, but most won't. They have no reason to. Why should they? And many have a reason not to.

And I'm sure it's a quite heartbreaking balancing act. Loving and supporting your child, whilst disagreeing with something that's very important to them.

[Softskin88]

Perhaps we need to relabel toilets and changing rooms as being for

“Persons with penises”

And

“Persons without penises”.

Problem solved!

[MrsKCastle]

Yes, Softskin. That is the problem really. The word 'men' used to mean 'people with penises' and 'women' meant 'people with vulvas'. Everyone knew this. They knew who 'women's toilets' and 'women's spaces' and 'all-women shortlists' were for.

Now we are told that 'women' means something different, and that this is somehow progressive.

Old version: women = female body, any personality, any inner 'identity
New version: women = any body, 'womanly' personality or inner feelz

[flowery]

”Now we are told that 'women' means something different, and that this is somehow progressive.

Old version: women = female body, any personality, any inner 'identity
New version: women = any body, 'womanly' personality or inner feelz”

Yes this! The reason I know I am a woman is because of my biology. I can see I’m one. And my body does female-exclusive things. I don’t ‘feel like’ one in my head as such. In my head I just feel like flowery- me.

I don’t know if I feel like a woman in my head because I don’t know what that feels like. And if I, an actual biological woman, don’t know what being a woman ‘feels like’, how can someone who isn’t one know what it feels like?