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DC15 wants to identify as female

677 replies

FrogInAHat23 · 10/12/2019 13:22

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

OP posts:
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Trewser · 11/12/2019 21:59

Show me a source that says they do.

isshoes · 11/12/2019 22:00

I'm aware that 'you can't change sex' is considered by many on MN to be an irrefutable fact. I also don't care. It's a viewpoint, whatever you say. It's also a matter of semantics.

isshoes · 11/12/2019 22:02

Show me a source that says they do.

Er.....no.....I have nothing to prove. I never made any claims about people majorities of people believing or not believing anything...

drspouse · 11/12/2019 22:02

@isshoes if you can find one person who has changed sex?

Trewser · 11/12/2019 22:05

Yes I was going to say if you can find one person who has changed biological sex then do share.

nolongersurprised · 11/12/2019 22:05

I'm aware that 'you can't change sex' is considered by many on MN to be an irrefutable fact. I also don't care. It's a viewpoint, whatever you say.

And the sex fairy waved their magic wand and said “Transformuus” and every single cell in Chris’s body changed from XY to XX and their prostate, penis, testicles disappears and they grew ovaries, Fallopian tubes and a vagina and cervix and vulva instead.

Like that?

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 22:05

I'm aware that 'you can't change sex' is considered by many on MN to be an irrefutable fact. I also don't care. It's a viewpoint, whatever you say. It's also a matter of semantics.

^^this.

Trewser · 11/12/2019 22:07

You think biological sex is a viewpoint?

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:10

Extreme ideologies

That gender identity overrides sex in all instances, that sex is a spectrum not a binary (nobody go there in dragging people with DSD's into it, they have asked not to be weaponised by queer theory proponents), that males can become female on the basis of a self-declared identity, that gender 'euphoria' (ie a fetish) makes males vulnerable and also makes them female. Etc.

These are all extreme positions.

A more moderate positions set out this:

Sex is binary. People are either of the class that produces small gametes, or of the class that produces large gametes. Some people are born with DSD's, which may make their sex initially ambiguous. They still have a binary sex. All people should have the right to present as masculine, feminine or neither, regardless of their sex. There is no right way to be female, other than to be born female, and there is no right way to be male, other than to be born male.

Some people, for reasons we don't yet understand clearly, but which may relate to trauma-based effects on the self-perceiving part of the brain (but equally, which may not - we really don't know) experience distress about the fact of their sexed bodies.

In a minority of people, this distress is ongoing, extreme and intractable (in other words, nothing seems to help with their distress - not mental health care, not social support, not support to process trauma). Some transwomen in this category of having persistent and intractable dysphoria talk about it as being a form of deeply internalized homophobia.

For these people, we have some very primitive treatments. Basically, we can offer medical changes to the body itself, and social changes, in the form of allowing male to present as female, or vice versa.

This is a serious, life-changing step, and should be a treatment of last, not first, option.

For people with intractable, persistent gender dysphoria, who have no option but to make hormonal and surgical transitions, we should minimise the discrimination they face to the point at which doing so starts to infringe on the rights of other vulnerable populations ie women.

That's an actual, moderate, reality-accepting, gender dysphoric person- accepting position.

People who claim a trans identity but do not suffer from gender dysphoria, or who have gender 'euphoria (ie they get off on it) are of zero concern to me, other than that all people have the right to present in as feminine or masculine way as they wish. People can cross-dress or dye their hair pink or put on dresses, or wear men's shirts or paint their faces or their nails pretty much to their hearts' content, as far as I'm concerned, but their psycological wellbeing does not rely on me considering them as the opposite sex, and so I don't.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 11/12/2019 22:11

There’s absolutely nothing transphobic about the fact that people can’t chance sex

I don't think anyone on here has said that anyone can biologically change sex though?
You can't biologically change sex, you're right there at least

Kit19 · 11/12/2019 22:12

No @Bizawit I’m saying I don’t see why any women should share female spaces with a male bodied person no matter how they identify

Kit19 · 11/12/2019 22:13

What @JanesKettle said

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 22:13

And the sex fairy waved their magic wand and said “Transformuus” and every single cell in Chris’s body changed from XY to XX and their prostate, penis, testicles disappears and they grew ovaries, Fallopian tubes and a vagina and cervix and vulva instead.

Look this isn’t magic. It’s science. One’s karyotype doesn’t necessarily define their sex, and their sex doesn’t necessarily define their gender. And plenty of people have successfully removed their testicles and turned their penis into a vagina through medical surgeries, without any need for fairies or wands.

ShSpecialFriends · 11/12/2019 22:15

It is such nonsense to suggest that the NHS GID services work on "100% affirmation", or that they "want" to encourage a medical pathway. This is completely not our experience, and is just scaremongering.
I do agree with a watchful wait though, and letting your child experiment with their gender identity in a safe environment, while supporting them to understand how it may impact themselves and others.
My Asd DD was gender-non-conforming from 5-11, but has recently settled into her own gender neutral space. I'm glad she had the chance to find her own way, and GIDS were a helpful part of that.

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:15

Sex should determine who plays in what sports past pre-pubertal childhood for most (but not all) sports.

Because sex has a vast impact on the physical body with which we play sports. Gender, by contrast, has no impact.

Latest research shows that transwomen do not lose muscle mass in a way or extent that makes them 'women'. They remain distinctly male in how their muscles work, how their lungs and hearts work, how their bones are structured. Of course they should play in teams or competition for males!

This is what I mean about reality-denying, and sloganeering. It's pointless, in the face of what really happens at a material level. And it doesn't help families in the position OP is in!!!!

GCAcademic · 11/12/2019 22:16

I'm aware that 'you can't change sex' is considered by many on MN to be an irrefutable fact. I also don't care. It's a viewpoint, whatever you say. It's also a matter of semantics.

Please explain what sex is, and how it can be changed.

Trewser · 11/12/2019 22:16

And plenty of people have successfully removed their testicles and turned their penis into a vagina through medical surgeries, without any need for fairies or wands

They didn't turn their penis into a vagina, they turned their penis into a facsimile of a vagina shaped body part. They don't have a vagina, or any female chromosomes.

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 22:17

Some people are born with DSD's, which may make their sex initially ambiguous. They still have a binary sex.

So first you said we weren’t allowed to talk about people with DSD and then you made a statement about them, which may be true for some but certainly isn’t true for all and would be vehemently disputed by many!

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:17

NHS GIDS may not work on that pathway (although whistleblowers from GIDS certainly paint a different picture) but gender clinics in my country do work on a 100% affirmation pathway.

It will vary by region/country, from no help available of any kind, to some help which takes a fairly neutral approach, with no pre-conceived outcomes, to an approach which pushes transition.

MrsNoMopp · 11/12/2019 22:19

the MN anti-trans narrative that you can't transition from one sex to another

What about the anti-women narrative that actual womanhood is so irrelevant that anyone can claim it for themselves?

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:19

Bizawat, I'm doubting your genuineness in wanting to dialogue with me.

I said I wasn't hear for the weaponsiing of intersex people - the use of their DSD's to 'prove' that sex is not a binary.

Whatever. You are not genuine in wanting to understand my perspective.

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:19

*here

theflushedzebra · 11/12/2019 22:23

What about the anti-women narrative that actual womanhood is so irrelevant that anyone can claim it for themselves?

Exactly. Womanhood is not a feeling, nor a costume for male bodied people to wear. It is our reality -due to being born female.

JanesKettle · 11/12/2019 22:23

Oh ffs, the sexism on this thread!

A vagina is not a hole. It's an organ of the body. It has a function that isn't 'hole for penis'. Anyone who thinks they are doing a kind thing by telling a natal male that he can have a female sex organ is deluded. A neo-vagina is not the same thing as a vagina.

It's not kind to lie to kids about some magical reality that awaits them at the end of a surgeons knife.

nolongersurprised · 11/12/2019 22:24

And plenty of people have successfully removed their testicles and turned their penis into a vagina through medical surgeries, without any need for fairies or wands.

Leaving out your DSD argument AGAIN, as the DSD community have asked not to be drawn into this discussion.

You can’t make a vagina from a penis. Vaginas are complicated with their own unique micro flora, pH and secretory functions. Vaginas lead to cervixes and both are hormonally sensitive. A “neovagina” is a hole made from skin and sometimes bowel mucosa (for the secretory function). Using the same words doesn’t make them the same parts.

I wouldn’t want my son believing that he could have a vagina constructed and it would be exactly the same as that of a woman.

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