DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

They didn't turn their penis into a vagina, they turned their penis into a facsimile of a vagina shaped body part. They don't have a vagina, or any female chromosomes.

Ok so wait about women with CAIS or PAIS who also have surgically constructed vaginas: do they just have ”a facsimile of a vagina shaped body part”? And btw they also have no female chromosomes. And yet they are still medically classified as female.

Oh sorry I’m not allowed to talk about people with DSD, I just have you accept your irrefutable claims that binary, biological sex is as unambiguous fact, and that all male and female bodies shares exactly the same characteristics.

A vagina is an incredible organ, as is the clitoris.

I was 48 years old before I had seen this picture of the clitoris, when it was posted onto Mumsnet.

It's shown in yellow here. Incredible isn't it? Only women have them.

And plenty of people have successfully removed their testicles and turned their penis into a vagina through medical surgeries

If I buy a knock off watch, would my insurer pay out as if it were a real Rolex? Would Rolex honour their servicing warranty for my new purchase?

Making a surgical wound that requires daily intervention to stop it healing itself is as much like my fake watch is to a real Rolex. It's highly insulting and quite contemptible that you think it is a real vagina.

Men cannot turn their penis into a vagina.

Ok so wait about women with CAIS or PAIS who also have surgically constructed vaginas: do they just have ”a facsimile of a vagina shaped body part”? And btw they also have no female chromosomes. And yet they are still medically classified as women.

So we’re back to DSDs?

If you met someone and they described themselves as a 25-year-old black man, 180cm tall, with blood group A and green eyes, but they were actually a 60-year-old white woman, 165cm tall, with blood group AB and brown eyes, would you believe them?

If you met them again and they had blacked up, had a facelift, put on platform shoes, put in green contact lenses, dressed differently that day, and altered the piece of paper stating their blood group, would they have literally become the person in the first description above?

JanesKettle I don't have a trans kid (yet!) but I'm listening and learning a lot from you

*Please explain what sex is, and how it can be changed.
*
I'd rather just refer you to the Wikipedia page on sex change, which you might find quite informative. It refers to the different terms people might use. It acknowledges that some aspects of biological sex cannot be changed. But it doesn't try to assign the term 'sex' to a specific set of criteria that matches a particular ideology.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change

I've never understood DSDs being used in this argument. The existence of DSDs neither proves that sex is not binary, not that a male can transform into a female. They just can't. I'm sorry if that is a sensitive thing to say - but "woman" and "female" should mean something. You cant just erase the definition of female and say that any male can actually be female too, just because they apparently "feel" they are.

So how about we just do away with sex segregated spaces altogether and let all the men into spaces reserved for women and girls? Seriously, let's do it.

I mean what could possibly go wrong?

If the men's facilities are such a dangerous place for a transwoman to be why aren't they and their heavily funded and hugely influential friends lobbying and campaigning to get to the root of THAT problem?

And the comparisons to gay men is just ridiculous. Gay men have never demanded denying basic biological facts. They don't seek to tell other gay men or lesbians they have a genital fetish. Gay men are not demanding places on female shortlists or competitive sport. These are BIG problems, how dare. anyone suggest it's a biological males human rights to say and do these things.

Back to the OP ... there has been some excellent, kind advice from posters. I hope you and your family are able to find a path through this

"successfully removed their testicles and turned their penis into a vagina through medical surgeries, without any need for fairies or wands."

No, let's not be daft. They haven't turned their penis into a vagina. They have had a flaccid tube of skin created from their penis, which is classed as a 'neo-meatus'.

And the comparisons to gay men is just ridiculous. Gay men have never demanded denying basic biological facts. They don't seek to tell other gay men or lesbians they have a genital fetish. Gay men are not demanding places on female shortlists or competitive sport. These are BIG problems, how dare. anyone suggest it's a biological males human rights to say and do these things.

I think I've made it very clear where I've drawn the comparison. At no point have I suggested that the issues facing gay men of precious generations have been exactly, or even broadly the same as those affecting
trans people. I've made a very specific point about assumptions made about the 'nefarious intentions' of a group of people based on one shared characteristic, and how thankfully, those prejudices against gay people have been vastly (if not completely) eliminated today.

To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

Totally sorry, x post Important enough to say twice, me thinks!

To posters asking what we'd say if our child came home to say they were trans? I think I would gravitate towards some of the excellent advice posted here by mums who have been and are still going through this with their child. It is not loving nor kind to allow our children to believe they can become the opposite sex. JanesKettle

And if we're taking about looking back in 20 years and feeling ashamed of ourselves ... what about the young person who jumps on the conveyor belt of hormones and irreversible surgery but later in life realises their real issues were something other than their body, actually they were always in the right one but they can not turn back. What will you say to make them feel better?*
*

Ok so wait about women with CAIS or PAIS who also have surgically constructed vaginas: do they just have ”a facsimile of a vagina shaped body part”? And btw they also have no female chromosomes. And yet they are still medically classified as women.

CAIS women have a shortened, or blind vagina though so they wouldn’t need to be “constructed”. Androgen insensitivity results in no penis development and there is a vulva, clitorus and part of a vagina, with the vaginal vault length variable. So it’s disingenuous to say their vaginas are “surgically constructed”. Maybe lengthened for sex?

Someone with CAIS has their own unique health challenges that are not acknowledged when posters use this as a “gotcha” to support the trans agenda. They have no ovaries or uterus, obviously, and are unable to father children as their internal testes are underdeveloped. There’s been historical conflicting advice about how significant the risk of cancer is with those internal testes.

@Bizawit, feminist groups have done a lot of work establishing how many transgender prisoners there are - and where they're housed. Here's a start: on the data established by Fair Play for Women through FOI requests to the Ministry of Justice.

Theres are various resources on the prison section on that website.

No surprise that there appear to be no FTM transgender people in prison. Male and female offending patterns appear to continue unaltered post transition.

Concerns about intentions of men, biologically or otherwise, are evidence based. Not all men are predators just as not all transwoman are but we still ask men to use the other room, cheers very much. Safeguarding and all.

I don't care what clothes somebody wants to wear but you cannot make claim to my space, sporting events and demand that I accept you biologically as I am. That is not denying someone's existence. And to make me, my mum or my daughter bow down to these demands is the real oppression.

Male and female offending patterns appear to continue unaltered post transition.

Which is where the whole “but we worried about gay man and boys but everything was fine and it will be fine with transwomen as well” falls down.

Women are already being assaulted by allowing men into their spaces.

there is a vulva, clitorus and part of a vagina.

Not necessarily with PAIS. This is variable.

Look I’m not trying to use women with CAIS or PAIS as a “gotcha to support the trans agenda”. I’m just tired of listening to people make false claims about biological/ medical sex. It’s complicated. It’s not easily defined. It is ambiguous.

Erroneous claims that binary, biological sex is an unambiguous fact, are being used to promote a trans exclusionary feminism and simplistic and reductive positions on the relationships between sex, gender and identity- see so many examples on this thread. So we have to be able to challenge those assumptions, because they are false.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy thank you, I will take a look at those resources.

Sex is only ambiguous in a tiny number of cases - and those are congenital medical conditions, DSDs.

For the vast majority of human beings, sex is unambiguous.

Erroneous claims that binary, biological sex is an unambiguous fact,

Without referencing DSDs - which by definition are a “disorder”, ie something has gone wrong - why don’t you think biological sex is binary? What else could it be?

Have a look at the info here www.transgendertrend.com/

It’s complicated.

It really isn't.

How many legs do people have?
Can humans see?
Biological sex is as hard to answer as those questions
Ie not at all

Yes some people will be born with no legs or blind, but that doesn't change the fact that humans have 2 legs and can see. we know that's something gone wrong if they don't fit that. DSD are exactly the same, although in the vast majority of DSD it's clear what the intended sex was.

Sex is shorthand for 'sexual reproduction'.

Humans reproduce sexually.

Humans possess one of two gamete types - small and mobile, or large and immobile. There is no third gamete. One of each of the two human gametes is needed to reproduce. There is no second way of reproducing the species.

There is no third or other sex.

To suggest this is an extreme and unevidenced postion.