DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Bizawit, it's because you are arguing that transwomen should use women's spaces because they are vulnerable.

@JanesKettle I honestly find your position confusing and I’m not quite sure what to make of it. But there’s no need to swear. And I can assure you that I don’t think women are mean and nasty, I’m not a misogynist, and my outrage is not performative. I refuse to believe supporting trans rights and women’s rights Is a zero sum game.

Why are we having a competition about who is most vulnerable?

No competition, just pointing out to the poor OP, who has now to wade through 17 pages of virtual yelling, that risk assessment is complex, and hyperbolic messages designed to get her to fear that his risk is immediate, and must be assauged with immediate affirmation, including inclusion in all girls' spaces (subject of the thread) is simplistic, and designed to give the child and his parents no room, no space to slow things down and work through his desires at a sensible pace that allows for as many endpoints as possible.

From what the OP has described, her son is currently cross-dressing at home. Many men do this and have done it throughout history; it doesn't make them particularly vulnerable. The OP does not need to panic, does not need to rush off to Mermaids, does not need to do anything, really, at this point, but continue to communicate with her son about his evolving feelings.

Bizawit -Except trans rights as proposed by Stonewall, LibDems etc mean Gender Self ID - which means ANY male can say he's a woman, and gain access to women's spaces.

This WILL affect women's rights. It's affecting them now. We have a leader of a mainstream political party who cannot define the word "woman" ffs.

@theflushedzebra no I’m not.

I’m arguing that gender is deeply complex and cannot be reduced to someone’s genitalia. I’m arguing that trans identities are real and legitimate. I’m arguing that trans people are valid, that they have rights and that their welfare and well-being is important. I’m arguing that none of these things have to come at the expense of the rights of women and girls.

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women.

I’m arguing that trans people are vulnerable. I’m arguing that they are vulnerable because of forms of gendered oppression, discrimination and violence, and therefore it’s ironic that this discrimination is being perpetuated in the name of rights for women and girls.

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women

No.

But there’s no need to swear

Tone policing a woman ? Goodness. How 1950's.

People like you have been screaming bigot at people like me for years, all the while I'm on the ground, giving my time and my energy to my trans kids for their best outcomes (as best as they can be given the rubbish state of research and treatment for GD). Forgive me if I'm a little angry to yet again, come into a thread trying to share a fairly moderate position with the OP, to get drowned out by -surprise! - someone crying bigot.

There is nothing confusing about my position. I love and care for my children, believe that transitioning is not something to be undertaken lightly, believe that it is a choice best made by adult minds with an adult perspective, and believe that women do have rights, on the basis of their sex - not gender - for some limited same sex provision.

I believe my kids are resilient, and if they do transition as adults, I believe they will live authentic lives which balance their rights and the rights of others, and that this is a good outcome.

If transitioned, they should not be refused work on the basis of being trans, or housing on the basis of being trans, or medical care on the basis of being trans, nor should they suffer violence on the basis of being trans - but that doesn't mean they can or should expect to be treated as the opposite sex 100% of the time.

Potential partners may not wish to arrange their lives by gender rather than sex, and that's fine. Women and girls may continue to need a tiny % of spaces kept aside for them, and that's fine too.

I wish allies would switch their attention to making sure transpeople can have spaces and services addressing their own needs as people whose gender presentation and self-image is at odds with their sex.

I hope my son will never go to prison, for example, but if he did, I would hope that allies had ensured there was a way to keep him safe in the male estate. I hope my son is never in need of DV support, but if he is, I would hope that allies had helped establish refuges set up to deal with trans-specific issues and transpeople themselves.

It's only hard to understand if you've been marinating in feel-good sloganeering and fake stats for too long. IMO>

Look Bizawit, women have sex based rights - legal rights that have been established due to their biological sex.

These are being eroded on a huge scale because of a small group of males feeling of gender identity. A males's gender identity should NEVER impact on a woman's legal rights. But it is - right now.

*Homosexual men never tried to push their way into female only areas, shelters, hospital wards, changing rooms, support groups, rape crisis shelters, girl guilds, female prisons, force women to wax their balls, take awards and jobs supposedly protected for women to increase their opportunities, demand that languages changes to suit them, including trying to force the nonsense label ‘cis’ on women in particular, demand that we lie to ourselves and others to validate them, call lesbians (or in the example you use, heterosexuals) have sex with them or be considered a bigot, etc etc etc......

Stop trying to use homosexuals as trump card in your game. It’s incredibly homophobic to do so. Have we had the “but..but..but...lesbians”, yet?*

It's not homophobic in the slightest. And I'm talking about any perceived threat of gay men against women...obviously....

The analogy refers to how gay men were once considered, as a group, to be dangerous to children. When in reality a small minority of gay men were/are sex abusers just like a minority of all men were/are sex abusers. Just like how transwomen are considered, by posters like you, to be threatening as a group towards women, when in reality, a small minority are sex abusers.

Hope that helps but do let me know if you need further clarification.

@Bizawit did you see the picture of Alex Drummond? Alex has had no surgery & has no intention of having any, Alex retains his fully Male body yet identifies as a woman and claims to be a lesbian

Why should I be expected to share women’s spaces with Alex just becatse Alex says they are a woman?

@trewster yes I understand you disagree. I was just correcting zebra who said I was arguing that trans women should be allowed into women’s spaces because they are vulnerable and therefore disabled and old people should be allowed in too.

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women.

Then you are arguing that all women's spaces should be mixed sex - even though you have said that you are not.

Males who identify as women remain male.

gender

is subjective, indefineable, circular. It is not a good basis on which to make laws, especially laws which seek to protect one group of humans, historically disadvantaged by virtue of their sex.

Seeking to exchange gender for sex (which is objective, defineable, and non-circular) is an ideological position which really has no place in a thread about what a particular parent should do facing a particular situation with her son.

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women

Great, how would you define that identity? If you wanted to put it into legislation?
Do you accept that, as we cannot tell anyone's gender identity objectively, that means these spaces are potentially for everyone?

My trans kid has a male body. Whatever cosmetic procedures he chooses to undertake as an adult, he will remain male in every cell of his body.

His health care relies on recognising this fact. It does not rely on his gender.

People should stop pretending to care about trans kids as a way of pushing their extreme ideologies.

My adult children are entitled to make their own decisions about their bodies. But they would also know that humans can’t change sex and hopefully be able to make their own informed decisions about whether they pursue medical intervention or not.

And what if they didn't buy into the MN anti-trans narrative that you can't transition from one sex to another? Would you disagree with them? Refuse to acknowledge them as their assumed gender? Or would you keep your opinions to yourself and acknowledge that some people feel differently to you and that's OK?

OK, well, I guess I just wasted more time trying to explain a non-simplistic approach to having a kid with gender dysphoria, or feeling that they want to present in a feminine way.

I hope all you posters who block up a thread with your ridiculous, reality denying arguments that are of no help to parents or their trans kids at all, one day feel ashamed at yourselves.

I’m arguing that none of these things have to come at the expense of the rights of women and girls.

I’m arguing that women’s spaces should be for all people who identify as women.

The very fact that you’re arguing that women should accept male bodied trans people into female spaces, completely comes at the expense of women and girls. My rights to privacy, dignity and freedom from sharing a female space with male bodied people aren’t yours to give away.

@JanesKettle ok sorry for tone policing. I guess I took the swearing personally which I shouldn’t. I never called you a bigot- I think there are some others who I would, but your position is more confusing to me. I also don’t think transitioning should be taken lightly and I have no doubt you love your children. I certainly don’t intend to “drown you out”. Please don’t assume that I have been capture by feel good slogans. This is a subject which is very important to me and I have taken the time to educate myself on deeply.

And what if they didn't buy into the MN anti-trans narrative that you can't transition from one sex to another?

The vast, overwhelming majority of people on this planet do not believe that you can transition from one sex to another.

People should stop pretending to care about trans kids as a way of pushing their extreme ideologies.

Extreme ideologies - how do you define that?

And what if they didn't buy into the MN anti-trans narrative that you can't transition from one sex to another?

There’s absolutely nothing transphobic about the fact that people can’t chance sex. 🤷‍♀️

And what if they didn't buy into the MN anti-trans narrative that you can't transition from one sex to another?

Don’t be silly. Humans can’t change sex.

The vast, overwhelming majority of people on this planet do not believe that you can transition from one sex to another.

I'd really love to see your source for that bold claim.

@Kit19 yes I saw the picture. Are you saying that surgery and presenting as stereotypically feminine determines whether or not a trans women or girl should be allowed into female spaces? Because if so you can see why trans children might feel pressure to get surgery...