DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

OP sounds as if you have absolute concern for your DC and will fathom it out alongside them. You clearly know enough to care for your child and their needs. The best of luck to you and your family

@theflushedzebra and @Trewser well we shall have to agree to disagree. It makes me sad and angry that there is so much ignorance, ill will and dare i say it, hatred, directed towards a vulnerable group of people subject to so much gender based oppression, violence and discrimination, and all in the name of women’s rights.

You don't know of antybeing killed in your area so that means they're not vulnerable?

In my COUNTRY, nobody was killed for being trans this year. In my COUNTRY, there is no trans-hate crime wave.

In my COUNTRY, the young people vulnerable to suicide are girls with GD, bisexual girls and teens with trauma backgrounds and mental health issues.

How do I know this ? In my COUNTRY, we have good crime stats and health stats.

It's simply not the case, that were the OP's son in my COUNTRY, that he would be particularly at risk for liking makeup and to wear clothes that are usually gendered 'woman'. As I said before, he is more at risk on the basis of his ASD.

Your hyperbole - but transpeople everywhere are the most vulnerable! - does no-one any good. It frightens parents (hmm...I wonder why someone would want to frighten parents), and it harms their child's mental health when they receive the (erroneous in many places) message that they are at terrible risk for having a relationship to gender presentation that is non-traditional.

Risk for a trans person will vary greatly depending on a variety of factors, including location, presence or otherwise of pre-existing conditions, class, race...let's not pretend that most Mumsnetters kids are at the same risk as transwomen living in very homophobic and racist societies, in very dangerous professions.

Where is the ignorance and hatred in my post?

I don't believe that trans people face more discrimination and violence than women and girls do.

Have you not noticed how transphobic large sections of mumsnet is? It's not a great question to ask on here, I'm afraid. I'd start with your DCs school - who should have some up to date training, and there are lots of good Trans supportive organisations to get information from. Mermaids are great.

And...yet again....what a fucking waste of time sharing very middle of the road information gleaned from research and experience on this issue.

Hijacked by those who just want to gasp at how mean and nasty women are. Who cannot engage on substantive points, and just want an excuse to bash feminist mothers and women.

Congrats on filling up the thread with your hyperbolic, misogynistic, performative outrage, so that I'm sure the OP doesn't even want to come back.

I'm no transphobe, my background gives me the ability to comprehend and understand child development and child safeguarding issues, I love my trans kids and am doing everything in my power to give them the best start to adulthood possible.

All you people with your 'so much hate' whining, you have no idea. Absolutely no idea. If you have transkids, you are doing them a disservice by treating a highly complex issue as a simplistic one, and if you don't have trans kids, then you are putting your desire to perform an imagined solidarity ahead of the real, lived experience of families here.

Absolutely despicable performance. The OP wanted advice. But others just wanted yet another chance to bash women here and on FWR.

If the OP ever comes back, and reads this, which I highly doubt, no, your child is not at risk on Mumsnet, and Mumsnet remains a good place (in terms of having a large user base of parents, making it useful in terms of soliciting advice from others who have btdt) to ask questions on this issue as on others - you just have to wade past the pages and pages of posts from people who want to prosecute a 'hate FWR' agenda.

I have to agree with Trewser and JanesKettle here.

I don't know where this narrative of transwomen being the most vulnerable has come from.

Women and girls are at risk of violence and harassment from males.

There are plenty of vulnerable groups - disabled people, people with learning disabilities, some old people. Should we let, say, disabled males, old males, or gay males - who are vulnerable and at risk of violence, into women's facilities as well?

Mermaids would have had my (now adult, now successfully dealt with mental health issue, now with a degree and a job and the cognitive ability to make informed decisions about transition) trans teen on testosterone and her breasts removed before 18 in a flash.

They are not a reputable organisation. Anyone promoting child transition, as opposed to quality mental health care, time, space and support to process trauma, internalised homophobia, and developmental issues of identity, permission to experiment with identity without committting to any particular end point of that experimentation, and investigation and care of physical health issues, are unethical.

The organisation began with a lack of ethics - SRS on a minor child - and has continued on in the same vein.

well we shall have to agree to disagree. It makes me sad and angry that there is so much ignorance, ill will and dare i say it, hatred, directed towards a vulnerable group of people subject to so much gender based oppression, violence and discrimination, and all in the name of women’s rights

Yes, exactly, WOMEN's rights. What about women's rights to not be discriminated against or subjected to violence. Why exactly do you think women should surrender their rights to women only spaces and free speech to a minority of men?
Why do you think women not welcoming men with open arms into female only spaces is hatred?
And do tell, what is "gender oppression?"
Let me guess, it's those pesky women again not rolling over and giving into men's every demand?

You want to talk about a group of actual vulnerable people, what about disabled people (like the OPs autistic son) who are affected by this stuff? Do you give a fuck about the rights of vulnerable autistic and learning disabled women to access women only spaces without worrying if there's a man in there?
I am so sick of this most vulnerable crap. Since when were men the most vulnerable in society?

Autistic and learning disabled adults are a vulnerable minority that are deprived of their rights every day, locked up in secure units against their will, often moved 100s of miles away from home, cheated out of their benefits, discriminated against when it comes to work and education. Yet no-one really gives a damn about that, do they? Because they aren't straight, white, neurotypical middle class men I suppose. Actual vulnerable minorities go ignored whilst you idiots are hoodwinked by a group of men convincing you they're a "vulnerable minority."

Bizawit, do you know this person? It's Alex Drummond who is on Stonewall's trans advisory group. Alex claims to be a lesbian. Alex has undergone no form of medical or surgical transition and never intends to. Do you honestly believe Alex is as much a woman as you are and would you have absolutely no problem changing alongside Alex in a gym changing room?

Head along to twitter and research the reality of what you are supporting. I have, by accident, ended up seeing a hard on in bright pink pants and someone with a hard on massaging their breasts in the Twitter feed of trans 'feminists' who were calling lesbian feminists who have fought for their rights as bigots.

I don't care what people wear or what they do or what they call themselves but I am offended at the suggestion that being a woman is just a feeling, as a woman who has experienced painful periods, pregnancy and childbirth, inappropriate behaviour, sexism in the workplace and so on because I have a woman's biology. I am a very left wing live and let live person but this is just not right.

There are plenty of vulnerable groups - disabled people, people with learning disabilities, some old people

My risk assessment for my son is that he is more vulnerable on the basis of his skin color, than on his liking for lipstick. And that many areas where his risk could manifest, employment being one, would actively cater for his feminine presentation while ignoring issues of ongoing racial bias within their organisations.

At his school, boys like him who transition, or who are thinking about transitioning, have quite high status among peers. His educational risk is more about his dysgraphia, frankly.

The college he is seeking to attend is explicitly trans-friendly. Again, his risks there are more around a genetic susceptibility to addiction, and exposure to a high income area where drugs are very available.

People need to be far more responsible and nuanced in the way they discuss risk. Many of the loudest trans voices in the UK, for example, use statistics inflated by the inclusion of sex workers. We all know that sex work is a very dangerous job; remove sex work from the equation, and risk dimishes greatly.

A white, middle class male transitioner working in IT is actually at less risk, for example, than many so called 'c*s' persons, including those in poverty, women and girls, people with disabilities, and gay and lesbian people.

I'm really very tired of trying to have a nuanced discussion on these issues, in this case to directly help the OP, and getting slammed by what I can only describe as simplistic sloganeering.

There are plenty of vulnerable groups - disabled people, people with learning disabilities, some old people. Should we let, say, disabled males, old males, or gay males - who are vulnerable and at risk of violence, into women's facilities as well.

I don’t believe they are asking for access?

Good post janeskettle

I don’t believe they are asking for access?

So what? Why should ANY males access women's facilities?

Great posts, JanesKettle and JanMeyer. I totally agree.

Men, however they identify, cannot be allowed into women's spaces. Perhaps the energy could go into educating men to be more accepting of transwomen in their loos.

ignorance, ill will and dare i say it, hatred,

Hilarious. I've spent the better part of the last three years making sure I help my trans kids have the best life with the most options available to them. Clearly, I'm just ignorant, malevolent, and wish my trans kids harm.

They have a very different perspective on it. Are they sometimes frustrated at my caution ? Yes. Do they understand and appreciate it ? Also yes.

Do health practioners understand, accept and even appreciate it ? Hell yes. From what I understand from the gender 'experts' we've seen, they are most cautious themselves when parents are falling all over themselves to affirm 100%, and even to push a trans identity. One gender expert we've talked to says that raises red flags for her, that child and parent both fail to understand the magnitude of the changes they seek, the risks involved short, medium and long term, and the risks to mental health of not first dealing with psychological and trauma based issues.

Everyone sloganeering here is wrong, even according to the people who work in hospitals with pediatric populations + gender issues.

If they ask, they should get. That seems to be @Bizawit's logic. And indeed the logic of patriarchy.

Doyoumind - don't forget the picture of an erect penis, posted on twitter, with the caption "wanking in the women's loos to own the terfs."

Why should women and girls have to tolerate this blatant abuse and infringement of their boundaries?

@trewster the ignorance was when you said that “no men“ definitionally included trans women and girls. The hatred was when you took an absolute position on banning trans women and girls from female spaces, because you regarded their presence as inherently threatening and dangerous.

Men, however they identify, cannot be allowed into women's spaces. Perhaps the energy could go into educating men to be more accepting of transwomen in their loos

As a mum of a boy who may transition as an adult, this would be brilliant. I would love for people to be doing this, instead of haranguing women. Help men understand that transwomen are their brothers, and should not be shunned or put at risk for choosing to embrace femininity.

I feel my child is most at risk (where he is at risk as a result of a trans identity) from men with unresolved homophobia and sexism, who think adopting a feminine persona is somehow 'gay' and beneath 'real men'.

There's a wonderful transwoman on Twitter called Fionne who is trying to do this, and I can only imagine how thrilled she would be if she actually had allies in this work.

Why are we having a competition about who is most vulnerable? Just because disabled people are vulnerable doesn’t mean that trans people aren’t? What about people who are disabled and trans?

Males (who include transwomen and girls) are more of a risk to females, than female are.

Transitioning does not undo maleness; a male transwoman is not a risk because she is trans, she remains the same risk as any other male.

Most males are not a risk to women and girls. But some are. This is why we exclude them from a very tiny % of spaces.

Acknowledging that transwomen and transgirls remain male is not hatred, but reality.

Because you are trying to say that transwomen are more discriminated against than women. I don't think that's true.