DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Also isn’t it the case that societies where there is the most sex segregation, are also those where attitudes about (the act of) sex and sexuality are the most conservative, not where there is the least VAWG. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we should do away with sex segregated spaces, I just think it’s a disingenuous fallacy to pretend that banning trans people from these spaces is essential in order to protect women from male assault.

@Doyoumind not sure what you mean?

I come back to try again with the 'homosexual' analogy. In current times, if a gay man were to abuse a child, you wouldn't think of holding that against all gay men, or using it as a pretext to prevent gay men from having access to children would you? Yet 60 years ago you may have considered that a reasonable approach.

Homosexual men never tried to push their way into female only areas, shelters, hospital wards, changing rooms, support groups, rape crisis shelters, girl guilds, female prisons, force women to wax their balls, take awards and jobs supposedly protected for women to increase their opportunities, demand that languages changes to suit them, including trying to force the nonsense label ‘cis’ on women in particular, demand that we lie to ourselves and others to validate them, call lesbians (or in the example you use, heterosexuals) have sex with them or be considered a bigot, etc etc etc......

Stop trying to use homosexuals as trump card in your game. It’s incredibly homophobic to do so. Have we had the “but..but..but...lesbians”, yet?

@theflushedzebra

MrsCastle said she knew she was a woman- so I explained that was her gender identity. She has been refusing that idea (that she has a gender identity), and just now stated:

*Now we are being told that 'woman' does not, should not have the meaning 'adult human female'. It has another vague and apparently impossible to define meaning.

Well,.in that case, I have absolutely no way of 'knowing' whether or not I am a woman.*

So I’m curious as to whether this debate has genuinely made her question whether she is a woman. I suspect not. I’m pretty sure she knows she is a woman.

It would be easier to just cut and paste pages 10-40 of these threads and save everyone the time and effort

Wouldn't it just - these threads are circular.
Biziwit is entitled to an opinion too, why do you think you're trying to be "educated" if you're being disagreed with?
Also what's with calling people you disagree with "they" - that's a weird usual thing on these threads for people who disagree too - either saying their name over and over again in a post or using they.
It's plain weird as pronouns aren't even used in posts most of the time, and opinions just replied to.

Women fought for a women's separate category in sports.

Was this about safety as well?

@MrsKCastle that’s interesting. Has this debate made you question whether you are a woman?

Well, the end result of transgender ideology will be to force the rest of us to redefine ourselves. My biological sex is relevant to my life and my needs, but gender identity is not. This debate has in no way made me question who or what I am; if anything it has clarified it.

However, it has made me question why trans people feel that it is necessary to change the meaning of the word 'woman'. I used to think that was what TRAs wanted, that they wanted to leave us without a name or label for female people.

I now believe that's not quite right. They still want the word 'woman' to have some kind of meaning. They want women's sports and women's toilets, they just want those categories open to whoever wants to be in them. They want to convince everyone that biological sex is not relevant.

Trans ideology falls apart completely when women - females- say that they don't have a gender identity. For trans to be 'real' everyone else has to be 'cis'.

The whole trans ideology falls apart

I despair at some of the responses. As the mother of a gay son I totally feel that some of the responses people on here have to trans issues is shocking. Perhaps if their child comes home and one day announces they feel they are in the wrong body they might look at what they’ve said to people and feel ashamed. People have the right in this day and age to identify as whatever gender they please. Whether that makes them a woman or man is neither here nor there. I’d continue to support your child over the next few years as they decide how they want to live their life. They are still your flesh and blood. We aren’t all lucky enough to be born into the right set up for society. Not everyone is the same. Some people need to wind their neck in and think how they’d respond if their child had the same conversation. You can’t simply rubbish your child’s feelings and tell them they can’t be male or female. These are real issues with can cause some serious mental health issues. Keep going as you are OP and I wish you both all the best

As I said, Bizawit - the risk to women rises massively in gender neutral facilities, as compared to single sex facilities. www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Perhaps if their child comes home and one day announces they feel they are in the wrong body they might look at what they’ve said to people and feel ashamed.

Darbs - you do realise that some of the women posting on this thread have been through exactly that?

So I’m curious as to whether this debate has genuinely made her question whether she is a woman. I suspect not. I’m pretty sure she knows she is a woman.

X-post. As I stated, I know that I am a woman, because woman means 'adult human female'.

Trans people use the word 'woman's to mean something else. Under that definition, whatever it may be, then no, I do not know I am a woman. How could I possibly know until someone gives me a clear definition?

It's like saying to someone: "Do you like pizza?"

"Yes, I love it"
And then giving them telling them that pizza is not a flat base made of dough, spread with tomato and cheese, and that shouldn't be used to define pizza.

They will rightly say, "Errr, ok... well how do I know if I like pizza or not?"

"Well, you said you like it, so obviously your internal "food taste identity" shows that you are a pizza liker".

Change the meaning of the word and no one can answer the question.

And that's exactly the point.

If my child came to me and said they felt they were “in the wrong body” I’d be asking where they got this idea from. I certainly wouldn’t tell them they were talking rubbish or dismiss what they were saying. No one on this thread has said that either
I would be telling them it’s not possible to change sex but if it makes them happy to wear a dress or cut their hair short “like a boy” I would support that.
I have no idea what your son being gay has to do with any of this darbs76

@Darbs76 thank you for your post

You can’t simply rubbish your child’s feelings

I agree, I'd like to think if mine came home and told me that that they were trans and were worried about telling me, that I wouldn't say "no you're not" and tell them how they should ignore it and that they should just carry on as they are

Children are born in their own body.

Darbs76 I take it your gay son is perfectly happy about dating people with female anatomy but a male internal gender identity?

I would be telling them it’s not possible to change sex but if it makes them happy to wear a dress or cut their hair short “like a boy” I would support that.

Everybody knows that you can't biologically change sex though (I hope!) so yes, tell them that, but what you essentially seem to be saying with your comment is that you'll be supportive if say your girl decides to want to cut her hair short, or your boy wants to wear a dress, but if they were to ever say no, it's more than that, they're trans you wouldn't accept that so readily?
Apologies if wrong
Because in this day and age it's perfectly fine to present and be acknowledged as the opposite sex/gender even if you don't like that

@theflushedzebra well personally as a woman im not up for mixed changing rooms either. I hate the idea of changing in spaces shared with men. But that doesn’t mean we have to ban trans women and girls.

well personally as a woman im not up for mixed changing rooms either. I hate the idea of changing in spaces shared with men. But that doesn’t mean we have to ban trans women and girls.

Same here

People have the right in this day and age to identify as whatever gender they please.

Only to a certain extent, how a person defines themselves is up to them. But when they start demanding everyone else play along with their delusion and tries to police other people's speech in regards to pronouns, then it's not just about their rights, is it? They don't get to override other people's rights because of their special "gender feelings."
Same as they don't get to identify their way into women's spaces just because they "feel like a woman."

You can’t simply rubbish your child’s feelings and tell them they can’t be male or female.

Well the OPs son never can be a female, because he's a boy. Or do you think children like him should be lied to and be told they can? And what effect do you think that would have on a person's mental health when they realise they've been lied to?
Of course parents have to tell children the truth that they can't change sex. Parenting doesn't mean lying to children because it's easier in the short term or pandering to their every whim. Sometimes doing the best for a child means telling them the truth, regardless of how difficult it might be.

*Women fought for a women's separate category in sports.

Was this about safety as well?*

Safety and fairness. When I was a teenager I played football with boys, I sure as hell wouldn't play with or against fully grown men now. Nor would I want to play against a man in handball. Not only that but letting men compete against women would in most sports mean women never winning anything ever again.

Was this about safety as well?

The example I gave (Women's Lawn Tennis Association) wasn't about safety - but women wouldn't get a look in if they had to compete with the men. But in many sports, it is about safety - rugby, wrestling, MMA etc.

But the whole argument isn't just about safety - it's about comfort and privacy for women away from men too. And allowing ANY male to self-identify into women's spaces completely negates it all.

But that doesn’t mean we have to ban trans women and girls.

I'm afraid a women-only space could not, by definition, include transwomen and transgirls.

Wotcha Bizwit specifically used the word 'educate'. It always appears on these threads. That's why I referred to it, not because she disagreed.

well personally as a woman im not up for mixed changing rooms. I hate the idea of changing in spaces shared with men. But that doesn’t mean we have to ban trans women and girls

I'm afraid it does.

@doyoumind I only used it once I believe and that was because I was being accused of nefariously using people with DSD to make a point, whereas I was just trying to correct a statement which I knew to be factually incorrect.