DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Also @CuriousaboutSamphire I have every sympathy for anyone who doesn’t want to get dragged into this conversation, I don’t particularly want to be dragged into it myself, as a woman. It’s an awful conversation. But unfortunately this conversation does involve talking about the definition of “sex” and people have to be allowed to educate on this issue, and correct misperceptions where they occur.

In no way shape or form does that mean that having “DSD” or being “intersex” (whichever terminology is preferred) is the same as being trans.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I have no idea what you mean by “you have revealed yourself”. What do you mean exactly? What have I revealed?

I am not wrong at all. I said you couldn’t determine what sex a person is by testing their DNA. That is a true statement. You can have a pretty good guess with this information, but sometimes you will be wrong.

As to the rest of your post- sorry but I find it totally incoherent .

But transmen aren't the issue! Gay men on both sides of the trans debate have done nothing more than either laugh or get angry at someone proposing they sleep with a transman. That's the sum total of the 'problem' there

I wasn't even talking about sleeping with transmen though, so not sure why you're bringing that into it?!
My comment if you were referring to mine about transmen was about how you can't always tell someone's sex even if you think your radar is totally on point and foolproof.
So how does that work in the toilets then? Which is the point that people were bringing up earlier and I responded to.

No. You're going to have to explain that you me. For the sake of clarity let's imagine that I don't have a couple of degrees in human physiology and that no other poster on MN is a geneticist!

Go...

Like a PP, I've found that Ladies & Gents signs are really all that's required to 'police' toilets and changing rooms- and safeguarding policies to protect female only spaces from males are all that's required in prisons, hospitals, refuges etc. These latter have been sadly lacking recently, as cases like Karen White prove.

Mixed sex facilities put women at risk. This is a fact. What has become obvious is that transexuals using the women's toilet by stealth has proved to be the thin end of the wedge - so much so, that now we're seriously discussing whether the OP's 15yr old son can identify as a woman, and then (from what the OP says), start using women's facilities - despite his only nod to womanhood being feminine clothing and makeup - and still being male-bodied. This turns a female only space into a mixed sex space.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I have no idea what you mean by “you have revealed yourself”. What do you mean exactly? What have I revealed?

I'm having a guess as to what is usually meant by that kind of comment if you have a different opinion - insinuating you're a TRA or a man or summat.
So predictable

Oh OK cross posted - see the reveal yourself comment has already been explained

I'm feeling sorry for the OP here.

FroginaHat, I hope you get some support.

If this persists, maybe you can ask the school to provide a neutral changing space and toilet. That would avoid your child either imposing on the girls to their detriment or being picked on for going into the boys' loos in a skirt (if choosing that clothing option).

Does he have an EHCP for the ASD? You might be able to get something written into that.

And that's not to say I'm accusing OP's son, or anyone else a predator - just that if you start letting anyone male into women's spaces, on the basis of self-identification - then what's to stop any male predatory type self identifying into them too?

It's not just about sexual assault either. Women are recognised by law to be allowed to discriminate against males - and have their spaces segregated on the basis of sex. We're allowed to preserve our spaces on the basis of a space away from the male gaze - when we might be a vulnerable state of undress, or ill, or escape an abusive relationship. Privacy and dignity away from males in these spaces matters to an awful lot of women.

We are also now in the ludicrous situation that the Leader of the LibDems, who wishes to bring Self ID into law, finds herself unable to answer the question "what is a woman?"

Because she knows that to answer that question factually, in language that has been understood by humanity for centuries, would now be considered transphobic. This alone should be ringing massive alarm bells to women everywhere.

@wotchatalkinboutwillis oh I see!! Lol.

see the reveal yourself comment has already been explained

Has it? Think I missed it..

Go...

It's in plain enough English and a straight forward enough question, not quite sure what bit you don't understand?
No degrees needed

A discrete, neutral changing space and toilet def sounds like a good interim solution!

I come back to try again with the 'homosexual' analogy.

I wouldn't bother. It's a terrible analogy.

We have sex segregation because of the risk men as a class pose to women as a class. Men commit nearly all violent crime and 99% of sex crime and transition doesn't reduce the risk.

Approaching half of the transwomen in prison are sex offenders. The rate in the general prison population is 19%.

So either TW are more likely to be sex offenders than other male prisoners or prisoners are prepared to lie about their gender identity if they think they'll gain something by it.

One way or another, it shoots a hole straight through the claims that whatever an individual says about their gender identity should be treated as gospel truth or that transwomen don't present the same risk that men do.

A discrete, neutral changing space and toilet def sounds like a good interim solution!

Yes, as long as women's facilities are preserved alongside them.

Perhaps “knowing” makes more sense: the deep, internal sense of knowing that you are a man or woman is one way that gender expresses itself.

But then again, we come back to this word 'woman'. It means 'adult human female'. I understand the meaning of 'female' and therefore I know that I am female, I am a woman.

Now we are being told that 'woman' does not, should not have the meaning 'adult human female'. It has another vague and apparently impossible to define meaning.

Well,.in that case, I have absolutely no way of 'knowing' whether or not I am a woman, any more than I would 'know' whether I was a amolby, a snerket or a pringdinger.

Thus inner sense of 'knowing', this gender identity, is not a universal experience. Gender identity is meaningless to many people. I see no reason why we should reorganise the way our society works and reclassify everyone according to gender identity.

Why do you keep saying 'they' . Your son is a boy who wants to dress as a girl! Simple! But still a boy and not a they!

Those of you who would say that to a child would, I'm sure, be very unlikely to say it to an adult son or daughter who expressed the same desire.

My adult children are entitled to make their own decisions about their bodies. But they would also know that humans can’t change sex and hopefully be able to make their own informed decisions about whether they pursue medical intervention or not.

In the strange environment we live in where children who want to be the opposite sex are treated with hormones to keep them in suspended physiological childhood then yes, if my child wanted to change sex I’d be very very clear that this is impossible. I don’t see this is invalidating. It’s possible to support your child in their struggles and encourage them to move beyond regressive gender stereotypes (and I have never read of a “trans” child where it didn’t all start from clothes and toys) and feel comfortable with you are they without condoning macabre, dystopian things being done to their body.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy I’m not sure we do have sex segregation because of this risk. I think we have sex segregation because of social mores around sex (as in intercourse) and modesty. I would also like to refer to my previous post about the context in which most violence against women occurs and, questions as to how (given that we don’t live in a separatist society, and that women encounter men all the time) women are supposedly to be protected from male violence by banning trans people from sex segregated spaces. (I noted that prisons may be an exception here).

I’m interested in your prison stats. Are you saying that almost 50% of TW in prison are there for sex crimes, or that 50% commit sex offences once in prison? Different conclusions could be drawn depending on which it is.

Also I don’t know if you know anything about research but it is an absolute fallacy to take a highly specialised/ unique population- such as the prison population, and use it to draw conclusions about the general population. In no way shape or form can the population of trans women in prison be understood to represent the TW population more generally..

@MrsKCastle that’s interesting. Has this debate made you question whether you are a woman?

given that we don’t live in a separatist society,

Oh, but we do! In places where women may be vulnerable - we have had male and female toilets, changing rooms, prisons and so on - since these facilities existed. Plus, I understand from the men in my life that they are pretty keen not to have to use urinals in the presence of women too. A lot of men like men only facilities too.

The UN advises places like India to introduce women only toilets and washing facilities for the safety of women NOW - so I wonder why we, in the more developed world, are going backwards on this?

In case where separate facilities for women didn't exist - women fought for them.

Women provided the first women's public toilet. www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

Women fought for a women's separate category in sports. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Tennis_Association

As ever, Bizawit has revealed their aim is to educate us. We really don't know what we're talking about 🙄 It would be easier to just cut and paste pages 10-40 of these threads and save everyone the time and effort.

@MrsKCastle that’s interesting. Has this debate made you question whether you are a woman?

She IS a woman - she stated so in her post. She is an adult human female.