DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Stonewall is accountable here too - including just about everyone under the "trans umbrella" - cross dressers, etc - not just transexuals - and for their rhetoric "anyone who says they are woman, is a woman".

The group of people wanting access to women's spaces has increased hugely by Stonewall's definition - and now include clearly male looking people with beards and penises - people who dress up in women's clothing for a sexual fetish (as confirmed by trans activist Tara Hewitt) - not just the old style transexuals suffering from gender dysphoria.

The bottom line is - once upon a time - women may have been happy sharing space with the small group of gender dysphoric transexuals, who often do have GRS, and sometimes do pass a women - but most women are not going to want cross-dressers and fetishists in the changing rooms/toilets/hospital wards etc with them.

Extreme transactivism as promoted by Stonewall has caused this.

So you are basically saying that a fatal flaw of single-sex spaces is that butch looking women might be challenged in them? Nothing to do with trans issues then - you just think single-sex spaces don't work and so we should get rid of them.

No.. I don’t think I said this at all...

Why does it need policing?

We bring kids up to respect the usual system. As happens with almost everything we do. As has been the case since women were allowed out of the house un chaperoned.

We do not make a law saying 'except some people who may or may not choose to conform'

But how would you police this?
A sign saying 'Ladies' or 'Gents' usually does the trick. Or at least it always used to. What's so difficult about that?

Why does it need policing?
Eh? Bizawit was saying (sorry if you weren't, Bizawit) policing in the sense of the word as those who apparently "know" what sex you are just by looking at you (even if you're butch, masculine, etc....) they're taking it on themselves really as being the police of who can pass as female enough to enter the toilets.
I'm sure with a fair few transmen they'd be difficult to pass as a woman due to the fact they were presenting as male.
You wouldn't always be able to tell even if you did see yourself as an excellent Police judge of femininity.

@CuriousaboutSamphire @feelingverylazytoday well exactly. And trans women / girls will continue using the female toilets, as they do, and men won’t and we’ll all be happy and no one will have to be angry and argue about anything. And we can all go back to working together to end violence against women.

I think the post from Biz stating that men will abuse women in any case, no matter what, makes it very clear what Biz’s opinion on women’s rights and whether we should bother protecting them.

This is about applying sensible means to reduce the risk of males as a class to females as a class. Not about trans.

I’ve been a victim of sexual assault, when I suddenly found myself alone on public transport, with a young male. He was in school uniform. He followed me off and attacked me a second time on the way home too.

I will do anything I can to keep males out of spaces designated for females because some will take any opportunity to assault and so we should be raising the bar, not scrapping the bar and hanging out the welcome bunting.

They can't even work this out in the Olympics!
Yeah, they can, they just don't want to. All they have to do is reintroduce the old rule that only people who are biologically female are allowed to compete in women's events, something that can be easily determined from DNA taken from a cheek swab.

Bizawit so what is a transwoman?

You do realize that we're a sexually dimorphic species, don't you, Bizawit? It's typically pretty easy to see what sex someone is in the flesh. We don't need to see a stranger's genitals to decide.

I know from lurking on trans groups that a lot of men who identify as women think that unless anyone actually challenges them, they've successfully "passed" as female - thereby demonstrating that they really don't understand female socialization.

Really? Try telling that to the female victims that have been sexually abused by male bodied trans prisoners in jail or the young girl sexually attacked in the toilets by a young male bodied trans person. How many female victims have there to be, before people take women’s concerns regarding safety, dignity and privacy seriously?

I come back to try again with the 'homosexual' analogy. In current times, if a gay man were to abuse a child, you wouldn't think of holding that against all gay men, or using it as a pretext to prevent gay men from having access to children would you? Yet 60 years ago you may have considered that a reasonable approach.

I believe that in 20/30/40 years time, society will look at some of the views currently being expressed in respect of the big scary transwoman as unenlightened and archaic. I don't necessarily agree with self-ID and I don't think this, or any child should be pushed or encouraged into any form of medical intervention to change gender. But I do think that the complete unwilling of some posters on here to recognise transwomen as women and transmen as men, under any circumstances, is very close-minded. As is this repeated assertion that 'it's not possible for you to become a woman/man'. Those of you who would say that to a child would, I'm sure, be very unlikely to say it to an adult son or daughter who expressed the same desire.

I think the post from Biz stating that men will abuse women in any case, no matter what, makes it very clear what Biz’s opinion on women’s rights and whether we should bother protecting them.

Oh my goodness this is completely unfair and absolutely not the case. My point was only that this is not the way to protect women from abuse. I think this argument is a horrible distraction, and, in fact, very detrimental to progress in that regard. Oh and btw I am also a victim of sexual abuse, not that I wanted to have to mention that. Banning trans women from female spaces wouldn’t have protected me from my adult, and since yours took place on a bus / walk home, it doesn’t sound like it would have protected you either.

*my assault

Good post isshoes

@feelingverylazytoday ’fraid not! DNA can’t necessarily tell you a person’s sex. There are people with karyotype XY who are medically classified as female, for example.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy actually it’s not always easy to tell. Not at all.

Good post isshoes

Agree.

It's typically pretty easy to see what sex someone is in the flesh

Not always. Transmen who by the very fact they present as men, you can't always tell with them.
Even if you think your radar is foolproof it wouldn't be all the time.

I think this would be really problematic, putting all kinds of people at risk of harassment, including “butch” or masculine presenting women. This would have the effect of entrenching and policing hyper -feminine stereotypes.

I wasn't asking about other scenarios, I was asking about a very specific one. A very very obvious male. And you think they shouldn't be challenged in case they're really female? I'm not sure if that's your answer?

And I didn't ask if it would be ok to harrass, but to challenge. They are not the same unless you buy into the fact that merely questioning whether a massive bloke is in fact male is harrassment. Is it?

You know how there are loads of thinkpieces about 'fake news' and how the ultimate aim isn't to convince you of one thing or another, but to give up and decide that we can't really tell anything for sure so why bother voting/holding our leaders to account?

I think this is the same thing. Chip away at once-clearly-established boundaries (like, 'no men in ladies' loos) until no-one knows what they're supposed to do or say or think in case it's 'wrong', so essentially boundaries no longer exist. You've already said any 'policing', ie enforcing of one of these boundaries, is problematic. Perhaps it's problematic to not allow that bloke to sit next to you on the bus and talk about his problems and let him know where you live?
Perhaps it's problematic to say 'no' to someone you don't want to sleep with in case they're offended?

Ah! Reduced to shoehorning in intersex, despite that community asking not to get dragged into this, especially by numpties thinking that their accident of genes is some kind of Gotcha!

You really revealed yourself there!!!

But transmen aren't the issue! Gay men on both sides of the trans debate have done nothing more than either laugh or get angry at someone proposing they sleep with a transman. That's the sum total of the 'problem' there.

@CuriousaboutSamphire absolutely not so at all. I was just correcting a factually incorrect statement about DNA and sex determination.

And trans women / girls will continue using the female toilets, as they do, and men won’t and we’ll all be happy

Or very, very unhappy.

Do you have a suggestion for those bloody unhappy at sharing female loos with known males?

Let's not worry about DNA tests etc. What about the women in Phillip Bunce's Credit Suisse offices? They all know he's male (as does he, on some days of the week).

What about the girls at my child's school? They all know which 'girl' pupil was born male. He was a boy in their class for years, after all. Why should they feel less embarrassed, awkward or anxious if he's in the girls' loos than they would if he'd done it last year? Or if any other boy went in there now?

Conversely, can you suggest why my daughter and friends were completely comfortable sharing the girls' loos for years with two female pupils who later came out as transboys?

Should they have perceived their innate gender and reacted as they would to other boys in there? I wonder why they didn't?

And you were wrong. There are only 2 sexes. An abnormality dies not constitute a new sex.

Which is what the intersex community have been saying for quite some time.

Which is why you reveal yourself.

Women can not insist on self definition
Intersex people can not insist on self definition
Transmen are not shouting, demanding self definition.
Only transwomen are.

Again men demand and women are told to be nice and step aside, no matter how harmful.