DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

Willis have you heard of probability?

ItsChristmaaaaaaaaas

There was also the TW who tweeted a selfie taken in the women's toilets of their workplace holding a fencing epee wrapped in the trans flag colours, who complained that a woman who entered and then withdrew looking scared was "transphobic". Because that's perfectly normal behaviour in a ladies loo...

Yes. I always take my weapons and sporting equipment to the loo. And take photos (well I did once when the sink was full of wine bottles after an office party but no weapons)

To all those people saying you can support trans rights whilst denying trans women the right to live and be recognised as women- no you can’t. That is a violation of their rights.

That's a problem then. 'Be recognised as women' while being recognisably male is not a realistic prospect and is why things have become difficult.

Trying to be perceived as the opposite sex must be massively stressful. Far better as an aim to have gender nonconformity genuinely recognised for what it is.

I want to hear the answer to your question @OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg
If it’s not gender stereotypes then what the bloody hell is it

To all those people saying you can support trans rights whilst denying trans women the right to live and be recognised as women- no you can’t

It is a bit of a contradiction in terms put like that, isn't it?
It sounds like I support trans rights but not their right to be recognised as the opposite sex.
How does that work, then?

No-one changes sex, because it is biological, fixed at conception and continues throughout one's life. Gender is different, a social construction based on perceptions of what male or female behaviour and appearances 'look like'.

"I support trans rights but not their right to be recognised as the opposite sex."

This is exactly what believe. I wholeheartedly support the right for transpeople to be transpeople. I believe they should be, like the rest of us, able to live free from fear, abuse and discrimination. I would happily support them if they were advocating for third spaces.

@JanesKettle really interesting posts, thank you. I hope the OP reads them and they help give her some thoughts and ideas as to how to speak to her son.

No-one changes sex, because it is biological
I don't think anyone has said that you can biologically change sex though?
You can't biologically change sex, you're right.
I didn't say that though - I said their right to be recognised as the opposite sex
(recognised, not changed)

You don't know of antybeing killed in your area so that means they're not vulnerable?
As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure where to start - it's of course terrible that so many women die, but your post seems awfully minimising of trans abuse and I'm sure (well, I hope) that you didn't mean it to come across like that

I'm sure there are vulnerable trans people. However, trans people are more likely to be murderers than murdered. No transperson has been murdered in the UK this year, compared to two women a week in the UK. In fact, they are statistically less likely to be murdered than the rest of the population.

The % of transwoman prisoners who are sexual offenders (i.e. a danger to women, specifically) is disproportionately high, compared to the rest of the prison population, around 50%.

Statistically, women are a more vulnerable group. Our need for safeguarding must therefore come before a trans person's desire not to use either a third space or one that matches their biological sex. The fact that trans people might be vulnerable does not justify significantly weakening safeguards which society has put in place to protect those who are much more vulnerable than them.

It sounds like I support trans rights but not their right to be recognised as the opposite sex.
How does that work, then?

It is not a human right to access spaces that have been set aside for the safety of the opposite sex to protect them from people of your sex. It's a human right to be safe. That right can be met by the provision of third spaces.

their right to be recognised as the opposite sex
This is not a right. It's a want. Other people have a right to belief, a more tangible right, enshrined in law, and a right to safety (see above).

You legitimise your child’s experience by hearing them when they tell you who they are and by loving and supporting them in the things that make them happy

If I did this with my kids they would never attend school, eat sweets for every meal, buy baskets full of puppies and kittens and demand a birthday party every week.

Do I make them invalid by not fully supporting their hedonistic self actualisation?

Or would it be better to explain that their education, health and our family budget are important real life matters they need to understand and for that reason there are limits to my ‘support’ for their choices?

right to be recognised as - so that's act as if. So not reality - dangerous concept.

Take no notice of people saying Mumsnet is soo transphobic. Over on Feminism Chat there are quite a few mothers of gender dysphoric DC who welcome the support we give. When the world seems eager to push your DC into physical transition it's good to find a place that's not full of cheerleaders.

Like others I would advise against Mermaids. We've heard about their tactics from mothers in your position. I'd steer well clear.

You can't 'recognise' something which isn't true.

I see an awful lot of threats and foul language aimed at women

Is it because they are women or is it because they are perceived to be anti-trans?

You never used to hear anti-gay people complain about how awful it is that gay rights campaigners are attacking heterosexuals. They seemd to have worked out that it is not the fact that they are heterosexual that is the beef, but their political / ideological stance. (note I am not actually defending the abuse itself).

To all those people saying you can support trans rights whilst denying trans women the right to live and be recognised as women- no you can’t

What you can do is designate a space or something else as being for the XX-chromosomed. Then the men and women with an XX can make use of it while the men and women without can't. That is no more a slur on anyone's man or womanhood than acknowledging that sometimes BME men and women have different needs is.

This thread has been totally derailed. What a surprise and how predictable.

Yes - mostly because they are women who won't agree with them.

Men and transwomen don't get nearly as much. Why is this - could it be that this is also a sexist movement? A horribly sexist movement who believe that women should shut up and agree, and deserve to be 'put in their place'? How odd.

Pro-woman isn't anti trans. Who is telling you that it is - men or women?

Women are saying 'hang on, you can't change sex' and denounced as hateful witches who need lynching - and this is cheered on? Why - what are they so scared of that they wont debate or engage beyond threats?

Why are women expected just to 'recognise' and male as a woman and hand over all the rights and safeguards because they say so?

Is it because they are women or is it because they are perceived to be anti-trans?

This - if you were to express anti trans views, it has nothing to do with whether you're a woman or not (how would you even know on here, for example?) it's more what you're saying and not the fact you're male or female.

Your idea of anti trans is what exactly?

Your idea of anti trans is what exactly?

Talking about women’s rights to dignity, privacy and safety, plus WOMEN having periods, hysterectomies, breast feeding, sexual assault, rape of females, FGM, basically anything that centres women. You don’t even have to mention trans for it to be ‘transphobic’. 🤷‍♀️

Rain, paperclips, paper cups...

ItsChristmaaaaaaaaas

Considering it’s anti-trans apparently to tell a child that they’ll never be able to change sex, to decline to date someone you don’t want to, to ask for a person of the same sex to do your intimate medical examinations, to ask that men do not use women’s facilities, to ask that men do not insert themselves into women’s shortlists, to ask that it is recognised that actually two women a week are murdered by their partners in the U.K. but there’s been no murders of trans people in about a decade, to ask that rape centres are not made to accept male people, to ask the activists don’t nail dead rats to the doors.....etc.

What is actually not anti-trans other than full scale capitulation to what TRAs want?

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg sex is assigned on the basis of human observations of the body (to the extent that we are able to observe them) and the interpretations and meanings that are given to those observations.

How does gender identity express itself? That’s a really complex question and I don’t think anyone has all the answers. What we do know is that it cannot be reduced in any simple way to what we wear, what we do, how we behave, or, indeed, the physical manifestation of one or more parts of our body (although all of these things may play a part). One important way that gender identity expresses itself is through our deeply held, internal sense of ourselves as man/ woman/ boy/ girl: as you say you know you are a woman.

Is it because they are women or is it because they are perceived to be anti-trans?

I was called a "stupid scaremongering transphobic cunt" by a transwoman on Twitter yesterday for saying that women's concerns over self-ID were less focused on transpeople themselves and more about the way it opened our spaces up to any man who might falsely claim to be a woman for the nefarious purposes of accessing potential victims, while removing our right to challenge such men.

Is it "anti-trans" to be concerned about women's safety even when I specifically said my worry was not transpeople themselves but non-trans men? Apparently so.