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DC15 wants to identify as female

677 replies

FrogInAHat23 · 10/12/2019 13:22

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

OP posts:
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8
isshoes · 11/12/2019 15:03

I think it depends on the way you worded your tweet.

I also think a great deal of this is scaremongering. It puts me in mind of this:

OkPedro · 11/12/2019 15:11

I don’t have an internal feeling of being a woman. All I know is I am one. I don't feel like a woman. I’m just okpedro. I’d love to know what this mysterious feeling of being a woman or man feels like

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 15:16

@YellaHumberElla I think it’s possible to hear your children when they tell you who they are and love and support them in the things that make them happy, without giving in to their every impulse/ whim/ trivial desire. Please don’t equate a child telling their parent they are trans to them asking for some sweets!

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 15:17

@okpedro “all I know is I am one”. That’s it. That’s all it is.

theflushedzebra · 11/12/2019 15:20

isshoes how strange. It puts me in mind of this:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedophiles-infiltrated-the-left-harriet-harman-patricia-hewitt

Predatory males exist. Thankfully, the homophobic language used in your video is less apparent in society now - but the predatory males never went away.

Predatory males use loopholes in laws and safeguarding to access their victims.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 11/12/2019 15:22

I also think a great deal of this is scaremongering. It puts me in mind of this:

Really? Try telling that to the female victims that have been sexually abused by male bodied trans prisoners in jail or the young girl sexually attacked in the toilets by a young male bodied trans person. How many female victims have there to be, before people take women’s concerns regarding safety, dignity and privacy seriously? While most male bodied trans people are decent people and want a quiet life, females shouldn’t have to put themselves at even the slightest increased risk of anything, in order for male bodied trans people to feel that their identity is validated. The problem lies with the high level of assaults committed towards females by males and studies have shown that criminal behaviour is committed at that same level even when males identify as trans. The vast majority of men are decent, so why don’t we open up female spaces to all men?

OkPedro · 11/12/2019 15:22

I know I am a woman because I am one that’s all. It’s not a feeling Confused

maggieryan · 11/12/2019 15:24

FroginaHat23, i dont know what sort of people are on this site, i read the first few threads and gave up. I would contact a helpline rather than listen to some of the uneducated people on this forumn who are clearly just out for trouble. . Best of luck to you and your son, and hope it all works out. We only have one life and its not a long life so you should be able to live it the way you want. Take care

theflushedzebra · 11/12/2019 15:26

Sorry Bizawit - someone's internal feeling of gender identity should not override women's bodily safety and privacy.

Going back to the OP - do you think that any 15yr old male should be able to say they identify as female, and be allowed in women's changing rooms and toilets? Because I certainly don't.

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 15:26

@okpedro ok perhaps “feeling” is the wrong word - or it doesn’t resonate with you. Perhaps “knowing” makes more sense: the deep, internal sense of knowing that you are a man or woman is one way that gender expresses itself.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/12/2019 15:31

Thank you for replying, Bizawit (you don't have to @ me btw, I'm on the thread). Sex is observed based on external genitalia. Penis = boy, vagina/vulva = girl. Only in a tiny number of cases of DSD may this not be so straightforward and since organisations representing intersex people have asked not to be conflated with transpeople, we can leave them out of further consideration of this topic.

How does gender identity express itself? That’s a really complex question and I don’t think anyone has all the answers. What we do know is that it cannot be reduced in any simple way to what we wear, what we do, how we behave, or, indeed, the physical manifestation of one or more parts of our body (although all of these things may play a part). One important way that gender identity expresses itself is through our deeply held, internal sense of ourselves as man/ woman/ boy/ girl: as you say you know you are a woman.

Quite a lot to unpack here. Starting at the bottom up - I have no internal sense of myself as a woman. I am a woman. I have a female body, I have been socialised as female. I have an internal sense of myself as "Tit" the individual but I have no knowledge whether that is inherently more female/feminine than my mother's sense of herself or my best friend's or any woman on this thread. Or indeed more inherently male/masculine than my father's, my husband's or the man who works in the Post Office's sense of themselves as male. How can anyone know whether their internal sense of themselves is 'male' or 'female'? If not gender stereotypes, what are they measuring it against? What are the markers for feeling 'male' or feeling 'female'?

You say that gender stereotypes are not it but that they play a part. Those stereotypes are a set of expectations placed on us by society based on our respective sex. If we feel out of step with those expectations then it should be society we are looking to change, not our behaviour and definitely not our otherwise-healthy bodies just to fit more neatly within such rigid and narrow stereotypes. "Gender" as a concept - or gender stereotypes, at any rate - only exist if we as a society collectively allow them to. Once we get enough traction behind the idea that both girls and boys can wear blue and/or pink, play with dolls and/or trains, and they can grow up to like shopping and/or sport, be nurses or firefighters, can go back to work after starting a family or be the primary caregiver, cry at sad films or keep a stiff upper lip, and so on and so on throughout all levels of society, the concept of gender becomes meaningless. Why would it matter so much to be seen as male or female, if you could behave and look however you wanted, work and play at whatever you wanted without teasing, judgement or censure? Without "that's not very ladylike" and "real men don't cry" and bossy woman/assertive man conditioning?

To reject being male (or female), you have to be able to define what you think it means to be male (or female), otherwise what are you rejecting? To claim you are female when you were born male (or vice versa), you have to be able to define what you think it means to be female (or male) otherwise what are you embracing? And that's the bit that no one seems to be able to answer beyond those aforementioned stereotypes or "well, you just have a sense don't you?"

drspouse · 11/12/2019 15:32

You can "know" you are Jesus or Napoleon Bonaparte or massively overweight (if actually 6 stone). Doesn't make it true.

strawberrieshortcake · 11/12/2019 15:32

Posts like these will always be derailed by people bringing up irrelevant pints and trying to spread their own agendas.
OP I genuinely do not know where you can turn for non biased impartial advice which is sad.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/12/2019 15:34

I think it depends on the way you worded your tweet.

I worded my tweet exactly as I put it above.

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 15:44

someone's internal feeling of gender identity should not override women's bodily safety and privacy.

It really doesn’t need to!

This whole notion that allowing trans women/ girls into female toilets puts women’s bodily safety and privacy at risk is so hateful! Being trans doesn’t make you a sexual predator. Also newsflash- trans people are already using female toilets- you can’t necessarily tell when someone is trans.

Depending on their gender presentation, however, forcing a trans woman/ girl to use the male bathrooms could put them at significant risk of harm.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2019 15:59

You do knw that you are exchanging posts ith women who have seen all of this before, don't you?

This whole notion that allowing trans women/ girls into female toilets puts women’s bodily safety and privacy at risk is so hateful! Why? Unbiased research over amny countries, many years has shown that in mixed sex spaces violence against women increases. Why is is hateful to want to reduce the rate of violence against women as much as practical?

Being trans doesn’t make you a sexual predator. ah yes! That old chestnut. Newsflash yourself. GC women don't say this! They do say that predatory men could use Self Id as a cover for accessing vulnerable women. As has happened, her in the UK, this year... including in a prison before Self ID is an actual thing!! Imagine how much easier it will be for such predatory men if Self ID is ever passed.

Also newsflash- trans people are already using female toilets- you can’t necessarily tell when someone is trans Two things there.... yes, we know. Some posters her are that trans person! And, hitherto, women have 'been nice' and not raised a fuss when a transwoman enters a womens space. We DO notice, we are just too bloody polite, or scared to raise a fuss. Transwomen who use the "We have always used wmen's loos and nobody has ever said anything" are just highlighting an essential difference between the socialisation of men and women.

Depending on their gender presentation, however, forcing a trans woman/ girl to use the male bathrooms could put them at significant risk of harm work through that, slowly! Transwomen who may only look like women may be at significant risk of harm if they use the mens loos. Why? Men, perchance? Yet you want men to be allowed to use womens loos etc, because.... go on, explain it to me again?

Remember the issue here isn't a man choosing to present himself in a more feminine manner. It is violent men.

No amount of bluster from you can change that fundamental fact!

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/12/2019 16:00

someone's internal feeling of gender identity should not override women's bodily safety and privacy.

It really doesn’t need to!

Please read the thread where several real world examples have already been given where it already has. Also, you reduce this to "toilets" but we're talking about all spaces where women are particularly vulnerable - prisons, DV shelters, hospital wards etc.

Depending on their gender presentation, however, forcing a trans woman/ girl to use the male bathrooms could put them at significant risk of harm.

Then third spaces are the answer. That way everyone gets a space in which their safety, privacy and dignity is preserved (so far as is ever possible) without impinging on others' rights to the same. Male violence is not solely the preserve of women to resolve by giving up their spaces, and consent is not transferable - if just one woman is uncomfortable with sharing those spaces with male-born people, then those male-born people do not get access to those spaces no matter how many other women may not have an issue with it.

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 16:01

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg I’d rather @ you for conversational coherence - so it is clear in my posts what I am replying to.

I’m not conflating DSD with being trans- this is a malicious attempt to distract the conversation. Someone asked how I defined “trans” which involved defining “sex”, you then chipped in to say that sex was “observed” not “assigned”, so I pointed out that sec is “assigned” based on human observations of the body. You are not correct in assuming that sex is only assigned on the basis of observation of one’s external genitalia - that used to be the case, until we were able to observe more internal parts of the body.

*I have no internal sense of myself as a woman. I am a woman. I have a female body, I have been socialised as female.”

Your sense of knowing you are a woman is your internal sense of yourself as a woman. Thank you for acknowledging that it is your socialisation as well as your body that plays a role in this “knowing”.

I said that gender stereotypes play a role in how people express their gender. There’s no doubt they do. Thank you for defining what a stereotype is.

If only we lived in the genderless utopia you describe, and are striving for.. Maybe one day we will, I expect we won’t. At very least, until we do, people will continue to have gender identities, and these identities will remain fundamental and deeply personal, and ought to be respected.

drspouse · 11/12/2019 16:06

Being trans doesn’t make you a sexual predator.

No, but being male increases your probability of being a sexual offender by 9900% (99% of sexual offenders are male).

Likewise being male increases your probability of making a woman uncomfortable if she has to share a space where she undresses with you by, ooh, infinity percent? As most are happy to share with a woman and many are unable (for reasons of trauma, religion, or privacy) to share with a man.

Depending on their gender presentation, however, forcing a trans woman/ girl to use the male bathrooms could put them at significant risk of harm.
Which is why we should be educating men to be less transphobic/homophobic/more accepting of feminine men (and NOT putting the burden on women). But for the meantime, we are all in favour of third spaces. Aren't you?

drspouse · 11/12/2019 16:07

Your sense of knowing you are a woman is your internal sense of yourself as a woman.
How do you know? Can you see what someone else can think?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2019 16:13

It sounds like I support trans rights but not their right to be recognised as the opposite sex.
How does that work, then?

Very easily!

Trans rights are as any other human right. None are being taken away. Women just don't want to lose theirs to accommodate a biological impossibility.

I want transwomen to have the right to live safely as transwomen. But cannot see how they can claim to have changed sex. Changed their genderised presentation, perhaps!

At the moment the law allows a legal fallacy, with exemptions. GC women want those exemptions recognised by Stonewall et al. For them to stop lying about them, to stop ignoring, stifling debate on the issues. Which are not TRANS ISSUES, rthey are WOMENS ISSUES and women WILL BE HEARD!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2019 16:15

’m not conflating DSD with being trans- this is a malicious attempt to distract the conversation. You're persistent, I'll give you that!

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/12/2019 16:16

Bizawit

I’d rather @ you for conversational coherence - so it is clear in my posts what I am replying to. I'd really rather you didn't @ me. I'm sure you're capable of using two asterisks rather than an ampersand.

You didn't make any attempt to answer some fairly fundamental questions about gender identity:

  1. How can anyone know whether their internal sense of themselves is any more 'male' or 'female' than anyone else's internal sense?
  2. If not gender stereotypes, what is this internal sense being measured it against?
  3. What are the markers for feeling 'male' or feeling 'female'?
  4. How is what it means to be male (or female) being defined, in order to know what is being rejected by transmen/transwomen?
  5. How is what it means to be male (or female) being defined, in order to know what is being embraced by transmen/transwomen?

If these questions are not capable of being answered with clear measurable determinants for what 'male' and 'female' gender identities are, then how can it possibly be ethical to pump children full of drugs that can stunt their emotional and physical growth and potentially leave them sterile or operate on them to remove healthy body parts?

Bizawit · 11/12/2019 16:19

Look. Nobody asks me what genitals I’ve got when I use the loo, and I for one would prefer to keep it that way 🤷🏼‍♀️. Shall this be the hill that feminism dies on? A theoretical, but vicious, row about where a small minority of people are allowed to go to the loo, which can never be policed anyway. Meanwhile men will find plenty of ways to abuse women and girls, regardless.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/12/2019 16:22

Oh dear god, it went there Grin

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