To just not understand how Epstein had such a steady stream of girls to abuse?

[AbsentmindedWoman]

It's obviously horrifying, in the most authentic sense of the word. But I think it's really only now that I am realising the scale of how many kids he abused - he bragged about huge numbers - just how? And how brazen he was, people knew to varying degrees, so how did this all go on so long?

How are there SO MANY vulnerable kids out there, that this can happen? It is on a different scale to an opportunistic predator who manages to abuse a kid because their parents maybe don't know where they are but assume they're ok, would never suspect the abuser, think he's decent, or whatever.

Just how are there so many kids who literally don't have someone to notice if they have been taken away in a plane by a middle aged man?? Wtf. And of course Epstein was an extreme predator with a lot of money to carry out his crimes, but the fact it happened at all probably means there are many men who are modestly well off who can pay for access to underage girls to abuse, fairly easily.

I can't get my head around it. It is my understanding that the majority of child abuse is perpetrated by a family member or someone close to the child, and that things like Rotherham are rare, relatively. But all the Epstein stuff suggests that abusing kids is sort of an accepted open secret in certain circles with money, where they aren't automatically ostracised or shunned for it. Wtf

Scummy rich Epstein,seemed to be able to do anything he wanted to do. And with prince uncharming's invites, even got invited to Windsor Castle, Sandringham,and Royal Ascot, according to the documentary the other night.

Rich and powerful men can buy young girls by giving them stuff etc. Didn't the asian grooming gangs do something similar to young vulnerable girls. Here is a link about the Huddersfield gang

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/huddersfield-grooming-gang-members-jailed-rape-girls-children-a9181646.html

I know not all grooming gangs are asian but this seems to be repeated up and down this country ... wish the government would crack down on this.

But not all those involved in this case were trafficked!
Squirrel

You need to educate yourself on the definition of 'trafficked'. Brought somewhere to be given to someone else for sex = trafficking.

It's far more than girls stuffed into car boots or lorries with the promise of jobs as maids or nannies thousands of miles from their dead end homes.

I was abused aged 13 and 14 by a man who did an activity my mum and I both did. Home life was pretty shit and I had zero self esteem. He told me he loved me and I was special and all the usual bullshit. In front of a roomful of adults, including my mum, he was cuddling me, sitting me on his knee, talking about losing virginity...no one stepped in, except to say that I was leading him on. That included my mum. When it came out, my stepdad said I needed to accept responsibility for it, as I hadn't listened to my mum telling me not to let him touch me. The group basically ostracised my mum and he is still a central participant with access to young girls.

This was a group in a small town at local, amateur level. No one had money, least of all him - he worked in a shop and lived with his parents (he also abused me in his bedroom while they sat outside in the sitting room then gave me a lift home). It majes me feel physically sick what goes on with major wealth and connections if this could happen to me.

@AngryFeminist

My heart goes out to you.

What you went through is truly horrific.

To be abused, the actual abuse itself, and then denied and accused by the very parents who should be protecting you, I can't imagine.

You poor girl.

You don't need me to tell you that you are a victim of abuse. Of the worst kind in that your parents in their ignorance (putting it mildly) shifted the blame onto you.

I can't imagine how you feel.

@AngryFeminist

Posted too soon, sorry.

I hope you can seek the counselling you need.

I truly understand what goes through a young girls mind in such situations.

The self hatred, confusion, shame, was it my fault, not being able to back out.

I would urge you to speak to a professional counsellor.

❤️

@AngryFeminist

These abusive fuckers seem to be fucking everywhere.

You're certainly not alone.

Please seek some counselling and if you get nowhere please come back to us.

😂

That was supposed to be

❤️

I’ve name changed because I don’t want this being linked back to my usual user name but I’m a regular.

I was groomed by someone in my community who knew me and my family at a distance. He knew my parents were both violent, that we didn’t have much and that things were a bit miserable for me. He flattered me, chatted me up, walked me home from work, and slowly but surely groomed me to where sleeping with him was an obvious next move. I believed myself to be in a relationship with him.

I was 14 and he was 34.

He went on to be all kinds of abusive, with just the right amount of affection to keep me “in love”. Just before my 16th birthday I tried to get out, his response was to rape me, the next day my parents found out I was “seeing a married man”, they blamed me for seducing him and beat me unconscious for bringing shame to their door and for not being “streetwise”. He continued to abuse me until I was 18, knowing I couldn’t tell anyone because I’d get beaten again.

I’m able to talk about it now, having done a lot of work on myself to understand the whole of what happened and the trauma involved. I have a secure marriage, lovely kids and a good job - life is good and I’m doing well.

I don’t post this though for sympathy, but because those attitudes expressed here - that children should be more street wise, should know better, should be able to walk away, that teenagers choose prostitution or can make life choices that involve very risky sexual behaviour, are dangerous and damaging and kept me in a place that I couldn't get out of, met with shame and judgement at every turn. Most of the adults in my life knew what was happening and firmly held those views. I was allowed to be abused for over 4 years because the adults in my life said I had made a choice and needed to get myself out of it.

We forget how powerful sexuality is, we expect children (because teenagers are still children) to have the skills to navigate waters that grown adults often find tricky. We forget that those children are developing - their sense of identity, their sexuality, that their understanding of safe, equal relationships aren’t yet formed and we expect them to deal with men who are very skilled at getting what they want. Throw in any vulnerability, poor family relationships etc and they have no chance of fending off these predators. And then we blame the children for not being street wise.

Shame on you @Squirrel134 and the rest, you’ve shown a complete lack of understanding of issues of power, control, vulnerability and sexual exploitation - the very issues you expect young people to navigate with ease.

While I think what happened to these girls is really vile & horrible and Andrew may or may not have done all the things it is said he did. I personally think imo he probably did and that JE was murdered (am just saying this to protect MN from being sued etc)

I do think that there is a huge smoke screen being put out there to protect American men who were involved sort of like

Look over here everybody at a prince and the things he has done

While everybody is looking over there (the Queen's son) people forget about the American men in JE black book

We have seen Trump in the photo - well what about him?

What about Clinton?

Bill Cosby?

Woody Allan? (Who is married to his own step daughter as his "5th" wife although he didn't marry all 5 but was partnered to 2 of them)

etc etc etc

I am not accusing any of the men mentioned in this post but I do think there is a huge smoke and mirrors thing happening

I also hope these women do not bring out books that exaggerate what happened to them. The truth but not exaggeration of it.

Who is the girl/woman who is leaving the door that he then waves to the camera? - I think I have missed who she is

Also, where is the maxwell woman, has she been murdered or is she just hiding somewhere?

I do feel very sorry for the Queen to have to read and hear this about your son must be really horrible especially as an elderly lady (although she is very hard working at 93)

Years volunteering for Childline taught a harsh lesson: there are so many, many unloved children.

I'd estimate that the root of the issue for almost all the children I spoke to was that in one way or another they were not loved, not loved enough or not loved in the right way.

It's about 10 years since I had to stop volunteering and some of the calls will play on my mind until the end of days.

I think both the girls' and their parents' heads were turned by the money the lifestyle and the rich and famous.its only in retrospect they realise it was wrong
I very much doubt they couldnt escape fromthe island. Everyone had phones then. Even if there was no cellphone signal there would have been landlines, computers etc

It was 2001 tvstar. No smartphones. Your cell phone wouldn’t work abroad unless activated- and there wouldn’t be normal cell phone coverage on a private island

But all that is moot because for the most part, they weren’t trying To escape. They were coerced

I'm not saying she deserved it or should have expected to have sex however she said it happened four times over 2 years I think so why did she go back?? If she was trafficked?

Because grooming gets as much into the mind as much as anything else. The chains might not be made of metal but they are just as real.

Also imagine you are 15, living on the streets and someone offers you $200 to massage a sleazy bloke plus you get a bed for the night and fed - are you telling me you would not be tempted?

I watched a US programme a while ago, telling how dedicated to school a teenage boy was, he lived in his van, goot good grades and worked part time.

I was horrified, I know there are British kids in horrible circumstances but we don't put them on TV saying, "look how great this kid is".

To Freudulant and all the other ladies who wrote about their life,

Anyone else reading this and thinking the age of consent should be 18 unless both parties are between 16 and 18?

It's hard to prove coercion and trafficking. Best way to keep teenage girls safe from older men might be to raise the age of consent.

Twenty years ago a friend of mine's son got offered a scholarship to a local highly regarded independent school. She quickly became aware that the Head of Music had 'favourites'. She saw the Head of Year to discuss her concerns and the Female HOY was unhelpful and dismissive. Ditto the Headteacher. She then moved her son to the local comp. A few months later, one of his 'favourites' tried to commit suicide. The abuse, over twelve years, was uncovered and made the news. He was sacked and prosecuted. Lots of parents and old boys knew. The older ones used to whisper 'backs to the wall' when this teacher went by.
I think abuse used to be common at many public schools. Parents took it for granted. It was a bit of a rite of passage. No one else took their son away from this school. The HOY is still there, no doubt busy minimising what took place.

Frankly, there is enough victim blaming on Mumsnet to show how easily this could happen. Nobody, as far as I know, has overtly said that Andrew Windsor was an innocent victim of a teenage temptress, but there is most certainly an undercurrent of that mindset. It’s horrible.

Not saying this would work with all of them. But I think there are quite a few men keen to keep on the right side of the law and perhaps a change in the rules would improve their behaviour.

All of this has brought up a lot of uncomfortable feelings and memories for me. I had a very unhappy home life - my mum and whole family were alcoholics, my mum had schizophrenia and manic depression and I was pretty much either left to my own devices (dad was chief executive travelling aboard frequently) or shouted at / told life was awful / not worth living for etc. Very negative environment. I craved attention and fell in with many older men from the age of 13- going on “dates” with many aged 26 ish. I told them I was 16 and I did look old for my age but clearly not that old...! Oddly enough I didn’t actually lose my virginity or do anything sexual until I was 18 but there was definitely a lot of grooming and questionable stuff going on, my Mum thought it was all perfectly okay - she was of the generation where teenage girls liked older boys / men and that was okay Lots of people I was surrounded by in the late 80s seemed to think that way.

Watching all these things on the news where the girls are 16/17 and people are horrified by things they are saying makes me realise how wrong some of my own situations were and how vulnerable I was.

The naive, frankly insulting, ill educated and just fucking stupid victim blaming is the same here as on the other thread. It’s the very reason abusers get away with abuse because thick people justify abusers behaviour.
Some men/women think they are oh so clever thinking an abused child needs to have some ‘streetwise’ reaction and the world will be a lovely place.
I’d be embarrassing posting such shit, take a look at yourselves and read some more.

But I think there are quite a few men keen to keep on the right side of the law and perhaps a change in the rules would improve their behaviour.
It’s not that difficult for men to keep on the right side of the law. Don’t use your power, influence, money, age or resources to persuade a very young woman to have sex with you. Don’t have sex with teenagers should keep most middle aged men on the right side of the law. They know exactly what they’re doing, and are both skilled at grooming young women and covering it up afterwards.

Yes- poor innocent souls. It’s so easy to accidentally rape an underage girl, isn’t it? What can we do to protect them? Could all girl babies have their dob tattooed on them before they leave hospital? Would that make it easier?

I think lots and lots of 17year old girls woukd put out with older men in return for that sort of money, lifestyle and celebrity company. I do not understand why any coercion would have been necessary.
Also even if there had been coercion, how woukd PA even necessarily know. That girl in the picture was the very picture of a happy healthy young woman having the time of her life

Also if you are coercing a 17yr oldyou do not also have to pay them thousands of pounds