To just not understand how Epstein had such a steady stream of girls to abuse?

[AbsentmindedWoman]

It's obviously horrifying, in the most authentic sense of the word. But I think it's really only now that I am realising the scale of how many kids he abused - he bragged about huge numbers - just how? And how brazen he was, people knew to varying degrees, so how did this all go on so long?

How are there SO MANY vulnerable kids out there, that this can happen? It is on a different scale to an opportunistic predator who manages to abuse a kid because their parents maybe don't know where they are but assume they're ok, would never suspect the abuser, think he's decent, or whatever.

Just how are there so many kids who literally don't have someone to notice if they have been taken away in a plane by a middle aged man?? Wtf. And of course Epstein was an extreme predator with a lot of money to carry out his crimes, but the fact it happened at all probably means there are many men who are modestly well off who can pay for access to underage girls to abuse, fairly easily.

I can't get my head around it. It is my understanding that the majority of child abuse is perpetrated by a family member or someone close to the child, and that things like Rotherham are rare, relatively. But all the Epstein stuff suggests that abusing kids is sort of an accepted open secret in certain circles with money, where they aren't automatically ostracised or shunned for it. Wtf

Yep. And all the families involved were all fairly solidly dull middle class, no children were vulnerable or neglected, yet a girl was still abused and every back was turned to her and her parents.

I can't say that my experiences since have changed my opinion. If, God forbid, I was raped, I don't think I'd even bother telling the police. I'd jump straight to the "pay for good therapy" bit. To me, people doubting me, picking through my life, and implying I'm some sort of slag would be just as damaging as the actual rape. And I wouldn't be likely to win the case, so what's the point?

He was rich! It seems pretty straightforward.

Men who are wealthy and well-connected have always been able to impress and groom young girls. They offer them fame, or the proximity to it; money and gifts, excitement, drink and drugs... Some such predators abuse boys just as much (the early days of the music industry involved a lot of abuse of boys by record producers, managers etc.)
While I will be clear that I am making no accusations and have no specific information, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there turned out to be predators involved in the making of these various starmaker shows such as the X Factor. You've got a huge pool of generally young, attractive, desperate-to-be-famous nonentities, many of whom you can probably pay off quite cheaply once you're bored with them...

I have often thought that there is a patch of the middle teenage years that is really very boring, perhaps age 14-17.

You are no longer a child, but no one takes you seriously yet. You can't vote, drive or do anything responsible. I think many teens would be very vulnerable to flattery, gifts and a window into a lifestyle that is beyond their means.

I’ve watched both interviews and it’s so terribly sad that these girls are failed by inadequate parents from such a young age. VG said she went to her father and said she’d been offered an interview for a job as a masseuse, now if my daughter came to me and said that I’d be very concerned, especially if she’d never shown any interest in being a masseuse, I’d be thinking why had she been offered an interview without applying for anything? Quite frankly it would scream potential abuser to me and I’m sure most other sensible parents.

There’s a steady flow of teens into street prostitution so it doesn’t surprise me at all some might think going away with a very very rich man would be safer / less icky than working a back alleyway.

You really didn’t know about trafficking?

You really didn’t know about the hundreds and hundreds of missing children and young adults? The ones who have never come back?

There are a lot of kids who slip through the net, who don’t have families to notice they have gone, who don’t have people looking out for them, who have come from the saddest, most fucked up backgrounds and some how just vanish into thin air.

It’s soul destroying.

Of course there are elite groups where child abuse and sex trafficking is protected. We’ve seen it the church, in the bbc, in Hollywood, it’s everywhere.

He had money, power, brains and a degree of charisma, he charmed many adults too. It is difficult to comprehend because he didn't look anything special and was quite short. Perhaps because he looked like an average guy, people trusted him.

Law and Order Special Victims Unit had an episode about someone just like Epstein, before we in the UK had even heard of Epstein. It was him, though. If I can remember more details and find the season and episode numbers I'll post.

Here is an article about it. Wow! The article is from this year but references the episode which aired in 2011.
www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/07/law-and-order-epstein-episode

money and lavish lifestyle. I don't know about these particular girls but I'd say the parents for whatever reason facilitated either by encouraging it or not having an idea of who or where their kids were hanging out.

remember Mandy Smith from the 80's. She was 13 and so obviously groomed with consent from her parents.

Bands, film producers, actors etc all have access. Its the fame and the lure of success and money. What young person wouldn't want to move in fame circles and party on yachts? Who was the woman in the Mike Tyson rape case? She was promised partying etc with the world champ. Only it went wrong.

In the UK age of consent is 16, therefore there will be some who don’t see JE as the child abuser he was.

The law in relation to grooming, trafficking and sexual exploitation applies to 16 and 17 year olds - the age of consent is irrelevant when grooming is concerned but few people seem to be aware of that. Even here you’ll find people talking about 16 and 17 year olds being old enough to consent to sex in situations where there’s an obvious power imbalance.

I grew up in one of the towns with Asian grooming gangs. We all knew about it, we all knew girls caught up in it. They weren’t all girls from difficult families, many were just your average wC. All the adults knew what these men were up to, they just didn’t care. The girls were wronguns and slags as far as they were concerned who deserved what they got. The men doing the grooming were nothing special, they just had cars and offered the girls booze and presents. Most of us other girls would give these men a wide birth. We all knew it was wrong but the grown ups didn’t care.

There’s so much shock and outrage when any of these stories break, but people knew all along, they just weren’t bothered. The girls involved weren’t worth a second thought.

mrsglowglow, the Mandy Smith business was scandalous, she was 13, her mother encouraged it and the poor girl ended up very ill. Bill was never charged with anything.

"In the UK age of consent is 16, therefore there will be some who don’t see JE as the child abuser he was."

I get that but it's only so for consensual sex; as jelly said above, that doesn't apply if a girl or woman is trafficked or forced into prostitution which is what JE did. However strictly speaking he wasn't a paedophile (unless other things come out in the future concerning pre pubescent girls), he was an ebophile or a hebophile.

that doesn't apply if a girl or woman is trafficked or forced into prostitution

Or indeed if she has sex in exchange for love, affection, gifts, drink, drugs, safety, acceptance, housing, shelter etc etc sexual exploitation takes a huge number of forms - it’s not all straight cash for sex, trafficking doesn’t necessarily mean being brought into the UK the vast majority of girls are trafficked within the UK, from one town to another to be exploited and abused.

@Bluerussian

"He was convicted of only these two crimes as part of a plea deal; federal officials had in fact identified 36 girls, some as young as 14 years old, whom Epstein had sexually abused."

*14 years old makes him a paedophile.
*

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein

You really didn’t know about trafficking?

Of course I knew about trafficking - or thought I did.

I stupidly thought it was predominantly adult vulnerable women. That's obviously still completely appalling.

I stupidly assumed the trafficking of children happened in very, very small numbers. And that it was extremely underground, not men casually disembarking planes with children, with lots of people knowing what was going on.

I find the whole extent of things really disturbing, it is like it has held a magnifying glass over a lot of misogynistic and shitty structures in the world.

I have taken a man to court for sexual assault as a mature woman. It was pretty awful and I was so angry, and the stupid thing is it wasn't even 'that bad' (I've endured worse, certainly far more frightening) but obviously it should never have happened at all - and I'm haunted by the sheer numbers of children, of underage girls, who go through so much worse, and how these men act with impunity.

It’s horrible once you see behind the glass. I worked in a sexual assault referral centre for a while and it opened my eyes well beyond my understanding of vulnerable in my privileged bubble - and I thought I wasn’t as naive as I realised I was. It’s heartbreaking.

@AbsentmindedWoman

I suggest you start by reading this:

Huge cache of records details how Jeffrey Epstein and madam lured girls into depraved world

amp.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article233704797.html

And google Jeffrey Epstein Miami Herald

It's all there. The FBI investigated.

@Squirrel134

Have you read ANYTHING about this case?

You think vulnerable 14 year old girls lifted out of school are 'starstruck'?

Lovely bit of victim blaming there Squirrel. I’m glad you were never naive or stupid enough to get into trouble when you were young. If only we were all clever like you, eh?

WAY TO GO with the victim.blaming @squirrel134 what of those young gitls had noone to 'bring them up' to guide them, to warn them of the dangers? What if you are just young and make one wrong bad decision that changes the rest of your life and you are trapped and can't escape the shitty situation

Girls and boys get starstruck and impressed by cash/fame/flash and make stupid decisions all the time. Hence the steady stream (rushing river) of just-turned-18 year olds into porn and ‘dancing’. I think we should be outraged that 18 year olds can sign up to be part of online pornography tbh; the images of them being exploited exist forever and are seen by thousands.

Vulnerable boys get coaxed into fighting in wars; vulnerable girls get coaxed into being sexually objectified. It was ever thus, and probably ever shall be.
Unfortunately

It is not victim blaming. It is taking responsibility for ourselves.

Not everyone is nice, not everyone has good intentions. Teenagers (even 14 yr olds) need to learn this, especially in todays' world. Sex is all around us, but it doesn't mean they or we have to get ourselves into dangerous situations, where it is difficult to escape from.

Learning to say 'No' is important, not just in cases like this, but in generally standing up for ourselves and keeping safe.

Young people talk amongst each other, some know who to avoid, who to go to for stuff your parents won't let you have. But there is a cost - there are no free dinners, clothes etc. If you don't learn that when you are young - when will you?
I wasn't always 'clever', I learnt that not all men can be trusted, & I learnt how to run away.
We cannot always protect or rescue our young kids/women/men from people trying to abuse them. But we can teach them to question the other person's intentions more - know all that glitters is not gold! There is usually a price tag - which you may not want to pay!
At school, Relationships, Sex Education classes should cover exploitation. But it is up to people to take on board, other people's experiences or learn the hard way.
'Cos life is not fair' and people who can take advantage of you will!