VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

@MinervaSaidThat

Not true. Did you even watch the documentary? High school girls were used to recruit other girls.
Yes. I did watch it. I'd forgotten that bit. I remember now that a girl told another about making an easy 200 or 300 dollars.

I also read in either the Miami Herald or the Washington Post that when girls protested at their sexual treatment, instead they were sent out to recruit others, I think it said younger ones.

Me too, and I was a royalist until fairly recently. The queen rocking up in a solid fucking gold carriage to Parliament was the last straw for me. This is something else entirely.

@ColonelCathcart
Her accusation came to light in April 2019 post the extensive criminal investigations ( 40 or so women raped by Epstein who didn’t mention GM ) Her accusations against GM have not been responded to or examined
Although she claimed to have reported Epstein and GM assaulting her when she was in her mid 20s to the FBI the FBI did not contact her or acknowledge this report and Maria assumed they were working on it for 23 yrs.
She worked as an adult for Epstein and claims to have seen 3 to 8 young women and children being taken upstairs daily to see him

Just because the FBI didn’t do anything doesn’t mean she didn’t mention GM at the time. I’m not sure what your point is.

@lyralalala what fear? I mean it fear of what?
She went to his place when he was home in Florida and sometimes travelled with him.
Outside of that she lived a life, had a fiancé, had other jobs

What was her fear?

@RonaldMcDonald you make a lot of claims but don’t post any sources. Why is that?

My point is that I’m unsure that she reported it. The FBI have not acknowledged her claim that she did or anything to do with GM
She didn’t make mention of it again for a further 23 yrs. No reporting to the police no wondering why no one chased or called regarding a rape, imprisonment, threats to kill

The entire number of young women and minors raped or sexually abused by Epstein did not mention GM - you’d think she’d be pretty central to their evidence
None else said they were trafficked by Epstein

I do 100% he was a predator and a rapist. I also believe he realised the power of money.
I do not believe VG - imo her versions of events do not stack up
This has no bearing on the dreadful things he did to other victims
I do not believe GM procured children for Epstein. I do believe she hired staff for him.

People who have suffered abuse, particularly at an early age, experience all sorts of fears that seem ridiculous to those who haven't had the same esteem- and confidence-destroying, undermining and (frankly) terrifying experience.

Often a diffuse, unfocussed fear becomes a way of life - it takes very little to tip them over the edge to being sick with terror - and they can't even articulate why they are afraid, or what they are afraid of becasue they don't know. The only knew that they are constantly anxious, and at times so horribly frightened by apparently ordinary things that they can barely function.

It can be an all-pervading fear that just dominates everything they think and do.

Why doesn’t her version stack up? There are some small inconsistencies but that’s to be expected with the passage of time.

On balance the evidence is in her favour.

Of course her versions of events stack up. She’s not the one claiming she has amnesia and can’t sweat.

@MinervaSaidThat they statements are all contained in the court documents released

VG was 17 not 15 when she met GM for the first time. She did not celebrate her sweet sixteen with Epstein. GM did not say now she’d be too old for him. These things never happened.

She was a 17 yo young woman, independent, living an adult life with her fiancé when she met GM

For this and other obvious discrepancies in the developing story I disbelieve her versions of events
I don’t believe she was a ‘sex slave’ as there needs to be some element of control which imo I fail to see.

This does not mean I disbelieve that Epstein was a rapist and predator and I also believe he should have been prosecuted originally in a very different way

A sex slave, as she has typified herself, indicates some confinement or coercion surely?
Occasionally seeing Epstein - whilst being engaged, having other jobs, living and travelling independently doesn’t make you a sex slave.
Does it?

I feel I'may have to have to step away from this thread myself despite arguing for it to stand earlier.

I understand you don't understand, and that is ok, I respect other's right to an opinion, it's just hard. It's like living in a different sphere.

You could say what' you've said about anyone who is abused. When I was abused, I was allowed out the house, allowed to stay over at friends, allowed to go to school. I had a million opportunities to tell someone what I was going through. In fact I was asked once by a teacher if something was happening. I denied. Hard.

I left home, but I would return home to where the abuser was. Voluntarily of my own free will. But let's question what this 'free will' was?

What is 'free will'? free will is a construct and reflection of how you perceive your reality isn't it? I had no concept of freedom in the same way that other 'normal' people did. I believed as I have already, and others have already tried to explain, that transgression against my physical boundaries was a reality I had to live with. It was almost normal. I knew of course it wasn't right but I didn't 'feel it wasn't.

Please understand what the objective of grooming is, and that VR had already been abused. E could literally just phone and she'd find her way back to where he was.

This is not uncommon. The worst case of abuse I ever read about was in one of those chat mags, where a grown woman was SA from by her father from a young age and she got married, left home and had children, and STILL her father would come by every week to abuse her. Her husband never cottoned on and she'd still open the door and let him in.

We weigh up our options in life based on many things, often on the beliefs we have about the world, about ourselves. If you believe that your life is to be used, that you must comply, or even that you enjoy it really (a way for the brain to cope), then you have limitations that are hard to remove without someone from outside objectively helping you. Those beliefs can make our lives miserable. We see this demonstrated in many different contexts.

I already explained that abuse skews your reactions to trauma. You just don't react appropriately to horrific situations. You return to what you know. It can be comfortable in a twisted way. A guy puts his hand someone and it doesn't feel wrong. You know it's wrong but it doesn't necessarily feel wrong.

Another thing is that it can feel like love. You can think that the abuse is a sign of love and it's the only kind of 'love' you know, meaning you go looking for it. It is possible to 'love' your abuser. It is very close to stockholm syndrome. VR has said, at times it felt like being in a family. A dysfunctional one, but still a 'family'

Mental prison is far far stronger than a chain is.

Often a diffuse, unfocussed fear becomes a way of life - it takes very little to tip them over the edge to being sick with terror - and they can't even articulate why they are afraid, or what they are afraid of becasue they don't know. The only knew that they are constantly anxious, and at times so horribly frightened by apparently ordinary things that they can barely function.

It can be an all-pervading fear that just dominates everything they think and do.

@SchadenfreudePersonified.

My god, you broke it down. My life literally. So very, very true.

RonaldMcDonald

they statements are all contained in the court documents released

You can’t make statements like she had her own flat and huge amounts of money and not link to a statement/article/quote.

Saying it’s all in the court docs is a cop out.

I don’t believe much of what you’ve posted.

ohprettybaby but fathers teaching their son is men teaching (future) men.

I'm just sick and tired of women (usually as mothers') being help responsible for men's actions .

@catherine
I’m sorry that this happened to you, genuinely sorry

I understand, given your experience, why you would assume VG felt similarly

Up to you @MinervaSaidThat
The court documents are Freely available and on the internet.
VG claimed she earned vast sums of money. I’m unsure.
Certainly she had her own apartment, got a car, had a fiancé, worked other jobs, had left drug rehab, was 17 before meeting Epstein or GM. That’s all a matter of court record.

She never mentioned GM to her fiancé or family.

@RonaldMcDonald

So freely available yet you can’t quote anything? Right

I can but this isn’t my job. A simple google search will be your friend.
Why do you assume it is mine?

Ronald, don't you dare patronise Catherine or presume to know how her mind works!!
Stop pretending you have exclusive access to information no one else does on this case, you absolute embarrassment.

If you're using the information to make your argument @RonaldMcDonald then of course the onus is on you

And how the fuck does having a car or living in an apartment or...ooooh, leaving rehab how controversial, have any bearing whatsoever on being a victim? Explain.

@Sagradafamiliar I wasn’t patronising Catherine. She said her experience was as it was and mine was as it was and that she respected the difference of opinion. I mirrored that. I am sorry she was abused.

I’m not pretending I have an inside track. I read the court documents. I stated this. Feel free to also do so.
I do not owe you or anyone else a link to public court documents

You can’t win the internet. You simply feel one way, I another.

I see you think I am projecting RonaldMcDonald. And of course strictly speaking I wasn't in her VR head and so I am having to project, but then so are you.

Thing is, what I'm explaining is textbook reactions to abuse and nothing novel or shocking. Textbook. I'm not saying anything unusual. The problem is that many people cannot shift their perception to try and put themsleves in the shoes of people who have experienced it. It is like two spheres.

FWIW I'm sure there were moments when VR thought she had it good. That she was in control, was being grown up or even lucky and should be grateful. I'm sure jetting around the world was initially exciting. But that in itself serves to tell you that her boundaries were skewed, considering what she said about her first encounter with E&M and that some people have questioned why she would continue after that experience.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you're not going to listen to those of us who might have actually have close experiences then what is the point?

A simple google search will be your friend.

Whenever I have seen that as a reply, it's never led to anything which remotely supported the poster ... it's up there with Godwins laws as "how to lose at the internet"