VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

I just wanted to make one point in response to @TheMidasTouch

"She sounds to me like a willing prostitute."

You can't be a 'willing prostitute' (whatever that means in the context of a young person with a history of abuse and trauma) in the UK at 17 years old. People are only allowed to legally use prostitutes if they are over 18.

It doesn't matter if a teenager finds someone older attractive- the onus is on the older person to keep their distance.

"I don't think he can rely on future payments from Prince Charles when the Queen dies."

I'm sure HM can leave him enough in her will!

@CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook Thank you so so much. It's not been easy and my poor husband had been put through the mill with my insecurities. I hate all this victim shaming. These women coming forward cant do right for wrong. People are forgetting this man JE had already been accused, confessed and was found guilty of underage sex yet his sentence was laughable with him actually being allowed to travel and carry on business as normal as long as he reported to authorities now and again. So why would these young girls feel able to trust authorities for taking them seriously. Why would PA, knowing this man's liking for young girls still frequent his homes, ask him to provide a loan to get Fergie out of debt? Just unbelievable! Sorry for rambling there. Hope you life can be filled with much more happiness than you've experienced and we all find peace somewhere along our paths to hold our heads high xxxx

Commenting about 'middle aged men' in a derogatory way as if no teenager would ever consider them attractive

Boo fucking hoo. My mind is blown.

Isn't her behaviour as bad or worse?

Why? Because she's a woman? I don't think she should be let off the hook, no, no. I repeat, definitely not. But isn't it funny how we must bypass the men in this and go straight for the women?

For clarity, I'm referring there to Ghislaine Maxwell.

The Queen may live another decade at least, and I hope PC would do the right thing, but I wouldn't bet my hard earned cash on it.

I think the Queen has carried out her duties impeccably, but I'm sad to say she has lost her grip on things as regards her personal family a long time ago.

If the tabloids are anything to go by, PA has had an obnoxious streak for some time, and stepping away from these allegations, eyebrows and concerns had been raised about his financial dealings as trade envoy, with no action being taken. Even when these allegations first appeared nothing was done. To me it looks like a case of molly coddling for years and being out of touch. There seems to be no central control by the Queen or Buckinghmam Palace. Was there ever any? Thinking of the whole C&D debacle, I'm starting to think it was all a propaganda excercise. Anne is the best of her children. And I am still truly baffled as to how it is that PA was hanging around with know international child traffickers and personal aides and Buck Palace do nothing. There truly cannot be any control.

The rumour is, that it is PC who has largely put pressure for PA to stand down, and then only after the crisis had happened. Until his intervention the Queen was still signaling tacit support by being seen driving with him etc.

I do feel sorry for her as an elderly woman, but then I think let someone else become regent then if this is -understandably - too much to deal with.

If we must have a RF in 2019, then it should start afresh with PW. Of course that's never going to happen but this has left a sordid whiff of unadulterated privilege about the institution, and by extension the concept of elite privilege in general.

They would show they were a bit more in touch by letting Andrew face questions by the FBI.

If men, all men, really cared about women being sex trafficked and young girls being exploited and me too and Harvey Weisnstein and Rotherham and the endless, endless examples we have of Middle aged men getting what they want then it wouldn’t happen.
I think many men do care about these things. My husband cares. My brothers and brothers-in-law care. I have male friends who think this whole situation is abhorrent.

What do we do to get ALL men to care? Is it down to education and re-education? Having more respect shown in TV programmes? What can we all do?

I'm not sure many men care really, but I'm rather fed up as why should women make men care? We can't, it's up to the decent men to make others care.

If we must have a RF in 2019, then it should start afresh with PW.

Why ? Why do they get another bite of the apple ? How about they all fuck off and we get the ability to elect a head of state who we can them dump when they inevitably fuck up.

The whole reason the Royal family is so rotten - and gets worse the closer you look - is because they've never been at risk of losing anything. If you were born a Prince, grew up a Prince, and knew you'd die a Prince, then there's very little you'd be threatened by in the course of your life.

They've run their course. The only Royal Reboot needed is the one to kick them out of the countries constitution forever. Where they can continue all their good works if they so wish. Once they've paid their bills, of course.

Since this affair, hasn't the Queen decided to 'retire' on her 95th birthday in 18 months with PC effectively taking over pretty much from now?

I also agree that PA should submit to questioning by the FBI. I think he may do so but I don't think he'll leave this country to do so. He'd be too scared.

@Perisoire

Commenting about "middle aged men" in a derogatory way as if no teenager would ever consider them attractive

You have to be a middle aged man, surely @ohprettybaby**
Nope. I'm definitely a woman.

Epstein was without doubt a sexual criminal who preyed on and raped minors. That is not in dispute. He is absolutely a predator.

For me the VG stuff is odd...imo

VG is the only one of all of Epstein’s victims who claims she was trafficked
All the other survivors detail rape and abuse only pertaining to Epstein.
VG is the only one of Epstein’s numeros victims who mentions GM - this is why GM was not prosecuted.
GM was not suveilled during police investigations no evidence was given against her except by VG and that changed wildly over time.
VG was 17 when she first met GM and the Epstein ( not variously 15 or 16 )
VG was living independently from her parents and was engaged at that time
She had a number of other jobs whilst being Epstein’s ‘sex slave’
She had her own apartment and car
For long periods of time Epstein was not in Florida or with or in the company of VG

How exactly does this make her a ‘sex slave’?

I am not trying to be obtuse but I fail to get it.

Since this affair, hasn't the Queen decided to 'retire' on her 95th birthday in 18 months with PC effectively taking over pretty much from now?

That was just another rumour it seems

She’s already handing over more and more patronages and duties, but I don’t think we’ll see an official regency type retirement from her unless it’s medically necessary

She’s too religious and believes that she should be the Queen until she dies. If she was going to step down completely she’d have done it at the same time as Philip imo. Or years ago

Ghislaine Maxwell. What to say about her?

No soul. Actually soulless. I have some sympathy for broken people, people abused who then go on to abuse themselves because they got no help, and the only way to survive was to become the monster themselves, or they became twisted. I have some - not much - but some.

But being so low as to help, aid and abet in the trafficking of women purely because you want to maintain your lifestyle, because you're too afraid to not have Daddy's help anymore?

She saw those girls as less than trash. They weren't educated, weren't class so they were nothing. Woman traitor. She'd be a wife in Gilead would'nt she? With ten silenced Hand Maidens.

The class system in the UK can elicit all kinds of abhorrent attitudes.

If you work in customer service you see it all the time: someone thinks because they are a certain class, this means they are imbibed with the right to give others from a different class a hard time over some trivial want. It's a disgusting attitude where someone values their life as being more important than others or people as having more intrinsic value than others. I'm going off point, but this is partly why these things happen. Real suffering has happened due to this elitist attitude. I always laugh when people say 'Class doesn't exist anymore' It's a truly blinkered thing to say. It sponsors attitudes that allow some people to literally not see people or their suffering.

Lady V. Hervey gave an interesting interview where she said 'she saw things but she didn't see it' meaning, she was just too removed to see what was happening, she had a concept of trafficked victims looking a certain way. I think most clients of E would have thought these girls were lucky because they were getting 5 star accommodation etc.

How exactly does this make her a ‘sex slave’?

What does a sex slave look like? Where does a sex slave live? What does a sex slave do?

She’s too religious and believes that she should be the Queen until she dies. If she was going to step down completely she’d have done it at the same time as Philip imo. Or years ago

Fair enough but she'll likely be taking the whole institution with her then.

@Sagradafamiliar

Isn't her behaviour as bad or worse?

Why? Because she's a woman? I don't think she should be let off the hook, no, no. I repeat, definitely not. But isn't it funny how we must bypass the men in this and go straight for the women?
Ffs, we definitely have not bypassed the men in this.The thread has mainly been about Prince Andrew and Epstein. I just don't feel there has been the same level of outrage at her behaviour yet my understanding is that she sexually assaulted some of the girls. Her behaviour is surely as bad. I think it may be worse because she went out and found the vulnerable girls, apparently loads of them, knowing what atrocities they would be subjected to. She 'recruited' them and was also involved in their sexual abuse. She is a vile human being, whatever her sex.

If she hadn't found the girls for Epstein, far less girls could have been abused.

Well, how does it?

A sex slave, as she has typified herself, indicates some confinement or coercion surely?
Occasionally seeing Epstein - whilst being engaged, having other jobs, living and travelling independently doesn’t make you a sex slave.
Does it?

If she hadn't found the girls for Epstein, far less girls could have been abused.

Not true. Did you even watch the documentary? High school girls were used to recruit other girls.

@CheshireChat

"I'm not sure many men care really, but I'm rather fed up as why should women make men care? We can't, it's up to the decent men to make others care."
It's sad that you feel that way. Are you referring to father's teaching their sons to respect women? I think both parents should teach both sexes respect for others.

VG is the only one of Epstein’s numeros victims who mentions GM - this is why GM was not prosecuted.

Not true. Maria Farmer -

Maria claims that she was appalled when, one night, Epstein and Ghislaine appeared in the bedroom of the house they all were visiting and began pawing and groping her.

What was galling in his interview was when he said simply ‘we moved on’. (Following conviction of Epstein).

He doesn’t seem to have any clue that his victims and Epstein’s other victims won’t be able to move on so easily.

It also reminded me of the way Robert Thompson said to his juvenile centre staff ‘it’s something that happened and I’ve moved on’.

Something really narcissistic about it.

A sex slave, as she has typified herself, indicates some confinement or coercion surely?
Occasionally seeing Epstein - whilst being engaged, having other jobs, living and travelling independently doesn’t make you a sex slave.
Does it?

It does if you can’t put a stop to it through fear.

Coercion doesn’t have to mean the person threatening you is stood next to you 24/7

Sarah Ransome also says GM played a part in the abuse

And we still pay for these people to live a life of the most extreme privilege???

I absolutely believe VG and horrified by pa and his delusions.

Id like to see the whole monarchy abolished.