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Original poster

VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

999 replies

churchandstate · 03/12/2019 07:05

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

OP posts:
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7
doublebarrellednurse · 03/12/2019 08:26

I think it probably did happen, but if it were with someone that wasn't rich and famous she'd have moved on by now.

Oh yes it's so common for people to just move on from being trafficked and handed out to rich and powerful and much older men as an object.

That's why so many identified victims are now dead.

derxa · 03/12/2019 08:26

I'm watching VG's father. He took his daughter to see JE to discuss the possibility of her learning to be a massage therapist. Can you imagine your own father doing this? Honestly? She was let down by everybody.

Original poster
churchandstate · 03/12/2019 08:27

Pinkypie86

I think it would be hideous either way, but it’s not our job to tell her how she should feel. She says it felt worse that he was Royal; that’s up to her.

OP posts:
diddl · 03/12/2019 08:27

"I seem to have been watching a different woman. Didn't believe a word."

I also didn't find her credible.

That's not to say that I found PA convincing either though.

Beveren · 03/12/2019 08:30

The basic facts are that he willingly and regularly consorted with a known paedophile with criminal convictions for his behaviour

I hold no brief for PA whatsoever, but in the interests of accuracy I don't think anyone suggests that he "regularly" consorted with him after the conviction; ; it was one occasion.

Pinkypie86 · 03/12/2019 08:30

Men use money and status to lure women (young and old) all the time.
Women who are involved with men who have money, status and power help to lure women(young and old)

Sad but so true. :/

doublebarrellednurse · 03/12/2019 08:32

Prince Andrew must testify says Epstein accusers' lawyer www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50633640

GertrudeCB · 03/12/2019 08:33

Lots of victim blaming going on here.
How would you feel if it was your 17yr old daughter ?

newdeer · 03/12/2019 08:35

When I first saw her interviewed I questioned her credibility. But now I think the issue is that she grew up being abused and went into early adulthood being abused and her abusers normalised this for her, belittled its significance, dismissed any emotional resistance she had to it, so she speaks like someone who hardly believes what she's saying. Like people who have been in a coercively controlling relationship.

To me she sounds like someone who is just now taking stock and realising that this was not OK, that there's a different vocabulary for what happened in her teens and it isn't 'I had a fling with a Prince.' which I bet she thought at some earlier point in her life. Now it's. 'I was shipped over to England by Epstein and Maxwell, manipulated, cornered, and had certain expectations put on me that I had no power or choice to opt out of. That's not a fling.'

It can take decades before you are able to reflect on how you were treated when young and work out that it was wrong. To me she speaks like someone who is only just waking up to this, still on rocky ground, in that she half doubts herself. I don't think she's lying. I think she has only recently reframed what happened.

Passthecherrycoke · 03/12/2019 08:35

@Whiskers14 that wouldn’t happen. The fbi can’t do anything about Andrew unless he travels to the U.S and tbh, In terms of Epstein’s crimes they certainly have bigger crimes to pursue than PA. not least Ghislaine, who was effectively a pimp.

I thought people would say what @IHateBlueLights is saying. VG does seem very aware and has an extremely polished story. But I think that can be explained by the fact she’s had 15 years to prepare for a public who don’t want to believe her

I also don’t think she cares particularly about PA- there are high profile people all over the world Epstein supplied girls to.

I agree though, I think PA genuinely doesn’t remember her. I suspect parties where he shagged young women weren’t uncommon

SimonJT · 03/12/2019 08:36

@BetterABird The UK is very strict on private planes, if you land at larger airport like Leeds rather than a small private one you are not allowed through normal customs etc. You are escorted via a different route.

Those records will exist, the problem is the UK authorities seem to be doing nothing and even if they do powerful people are very good at having things hidden.

With the issue of her being 17, the age of consent for travelling Americans is 18. Even if she had been old enough to legally consent to sex her ability to consent was taken away due being coerced.

fadedafternoons · 03/12/2019 08:36

zebras, I was a mum of two at 17! Never mind where my parents were!

Original poster
churchandstate · 03/12/2019 08:37

I think she speaks very credibly. She doesn’t overstate what happened. She talks convincingly about enough detail without over-embellishment. She shows emotion when she speaks. She doesn’t waffle. And her eye contact is steady and unwavering. I have no doubt that she believes what she is saying.

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YouSawThePlans · 03/12/2019 08:38

I wonder about JE's motivation. If all his rich and influential friends didn't realise the women were being trafficked, did JE use that information to blackmail them? If there is a wealth of compromising material including videos, who has access to it now?

Pinkypie86 · 03/12/2019 08:40

@churchandstate

Completely agree with you.
Hideous and I cannot imagine what she has been through but, she is strong and I give her credit for that.
I think like I said previously - it has turned into a vendetta now and PA is an easy target because he is so silenced.
PA knows - he knows what happened and, the feigning all knowledge is the oldest trick in the book.

Gardai · 03/12/2019 08:42

It’s all incredibly sad imo.
There were so many people involved in this, what about Epstein’s friendship with Trump for example, he allegedly met Melania through him. Naomi Campbell was a party goer at his island and the many security staff would have seen everything as would all his other staff and the visitors. The guy who owns Victoria’s Secret was a mate too and apparently gave Epstein his NY house for free...
It was made possible by money and the fact that up until now no one would believe the victims.
There’s a much bigger layer of corruption and exploitation, but hardly surprising really.

ZebrasAreHorsesInPyjamas · 03/12/2019 08:44

@churchandstate
What I mean is, I don’t believe it’s relevant to this issue why her parents allowed this to happen.

I actually do. I understand that if she was abused it is perhaps rather irrelevant, so this is maybe hypothetical now. But to me, it is relevant and especially in light of what one poster has mentioned about her dad passing her off to "learn massage". If parents knowingly allow their daughter to enter into such a clearly dodgy world, travelling overseas with a middle aged man, then they should be publicly hauled over the coals and questioned as to why they allowed their vulnerable child to get involved in such a situation. Blame PA all you want, he rightfully should be questioned and punished if he was aware of her age and the situation, but some of the buck has to be passed to the parents who allowed it to happen in the first place.

There have been similar kinds of cases where the parents have cried and ranted and accused on behalf of their poor child, as with the Michael Jackson cases. But my first thought is - Where were the parents and what were they doing when their child was off in some awful situation.

But as I said, this is probably rather irrelevant in this particular case, or maybe not. Perhaps the parents should be publicly questioned as to why they abused their child so badly that she thought the only "out" was to allow herself to be abused by others...

Dustarr73 · 03/12/2019 08:44

Ghislaine Maxwell is she going to be held accountable.Shes as guilty as Epstein and anyone else involved.

SerendipityJane · 03/12/2019 08:45

Personal Protection Officers working for the Royal Family will not confirm or deny anything, in my opinion.

Personal ? We pay for them: the taxpayer. And if they weren't keeping PA out of trouble then - bluntly - what's the point of them ?

There's 2 answers:

  1. The protection officers managed to completely miss that their charge was hobnobbing with the likes of Epstein and getting up to all sorts, in which case a quick P45 or two needs to be handed out,

OR

  1. The protection officers were fully aware of what was going on but kept quiet. Which some might call "aiding and abetting". And (as noted previously) they did/are doing this while you and I are paying them for the privilege.

To be honest, this whole affair - regardless of what exactly happened - has shone a very welcome light on what these privileged pricks get up to on our dollar, while last night over 1,000 people slept rough.

ARoomWithoutADoor · 03/12/2019 08:46

"There is far FAR more chance that a rich, older man raised on entitlement who spends time with proven paedophiles DID abuse a trafficked young woman than that she is lying"

This ^

Also, when VG was asked why she didn't 'walk away' when first put in the situation the bleak look on her face as she said: 'well, it's just how it is' (referring to her previous abuse) sadly rang very true.

Epstein and Maxwell provided easy-access abuse of a stream of young vulnerable girls for the famous and then blackmailed them for money and further power..

Original poster
churchandstate · 03/12/2019 08:46

Blame PA all you want, he rightfully should be questioned and punished if he was aware of her age and the situation, but some of the buck has to be passed to the parents who allowed it to happen in the first place.

There is no “buck”. He either exploited her or he didn’t. None of his blame for that can or should be “passed” anywhere. So you're right: what her father did do, didn’t do, should have done or shouldn’t have done is irrelevant to this question.

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Gardai · 03/12/2019 08:47

Ghislaine Maxwell is a chip off the old block - I remember her father and his rather timely disappearing off a boat...she’s as slippery as fuck too.

JohnLewisIain · 03/12/2019 08:48

There is an interesting video doing the rounds on Twitter where Selina Scott interviews PA.

kmammamalto · 03/12/2019 08:49

Why in Christ name would anyone make it up?!!!!

Solihooley · 03/12/2019 08:51

Totally believe her (I always did). But I’ve never seen anyone so obviously lying as PA in that interview. Everything that came out of his gob was complete bullshit, of that I’m sure. ‘I don’t remember’ is a convenient way of not telling the truth but not complete denial. How he thought the public would fall for that shit show of an interview is beyond me, it shows how stupid and entitled he must be. If he hasn’t done anything wrong, why not offer to help with the investigation? As for GM, she should be rotting in jail.