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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

999 replies

churchandstate · 03/12/2019 07:05

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Teateaandmoretea · 04/12/2019 12:59

Don't we all just want the same thing - for the Epstein/Maxwell 'situatuon' (for want of a better word) to be fully and openly investigated, for the girls and women involved to receive justice and for ALL perpetrators of crimes against them to be brought to justice?

I think that's only part of it. We also want society to not blame victims for their abuse via being out late/ I'd have behaved differently/ it's the parents' fault/ she is just a slapper etc etc. That way if the tide turns then hopefully abuse will reduce in the first instance so there will be less need for investigations.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 12:59

@ohprettybaby

Posters claiming others are misogynists while the accusers sound like they hate all men.

Add posters making generalisations to this thread. I haven’t seen any man-hating on this thread. Can you provide examples?

I think it’s important to challenge all the people that think this was consensual sex.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 13:01

It really is like that, a whistle that predatory men can hear. You really start to think it's something you're doing. It's not. I don't know what it is, I can't hear it but they sure as hell can.

That’s truly terrifying.

Cremebrule · 04/12/2019 13:04

It really saddens me how many people on here are quick to dismiss VR and find an excuse for the men around her. It makes me realise why so many women keep quiet and why so many prosecutions fail. There is a definite view of what a victim of abuse should act like, what they should do etc despite accounts on here from women who have been abused saying how they didn’t react like they were ‘supposed to’. No-one can know how they’d react and no-one should be placing their world view of expectations into a 17 year old who had been subject to childhood abuse.

RhinoskinhaveI · 04/12/2019 13:07

They target the vulnerable for the same reason that the lion targets the weak antelope, they are predators, it is in their nature to exploit and abuse, if they sense a weakness or a vulnerability they are drawn in

AhNowTed · 04/12/2019 13:10

It's like Groundhog Day here. The thread is over 24 hours old. There's been some great posts, links, research, personal accounts. But give it a few minutes and another one whose read absolutely nothing will stroll in and throw a "nobody forced her" comment.

CheshireChat · 04/12/2019 13:13

What pisses me off is that when the victims go off the rails or behave in some sort of "improper" manner, then they are blamed. Either for taking risks or for bringing it upon themselves or for outright lying.

However, there's neverending excuses for the abusers- maybe they had a hard childhood/ were abused themselves, maybe they were starved for sex or affection, maybe they didn't think to give the slightest consideration to consent, but it's the victim's fault for not making it more clear...

LaurieMarlow · 04/12/2019 13:15

However, there's neverending excuses for the abusers

Absolutely. Well illustrated on this thread by the 'maybe PA has PTSD' point. Not something that PA has ever even remotely suggested himself.

RhinoskinhaveI · 04/12/2019 13:19

The crucial skill for the Predator is selecting the right victim

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 04/12/2019 13:19

That Apple Tree Yard clip is excellent. Very helpful. I've added to my favourites. Never watched this series before. Thanks for the clip @ColonelCathcart

AngelsSins · 04/12/2019 13:22

CleansUpDragonPoo

You can roll your eyes at me as much as you want, but having been abused as a child, I find her ignorant, victim blaming posts and suggestion that rapists rape because they “have to” utterly disgusting.

PippiDeLena · 04/12/2019 13:32

Thanks @CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook luckily those days are way behind me.

One thing that made me incandescent about the victim blaming on this thread is all the posters piously saying that they hope Virginia Guiffre gives her entire fee for the interview to a domestic violence charity because it would be so wrong for her to profit from what happened. Why the fuck should she? When she reported Epstein she had to leave her home and live in a caravan on the other side of the country due to threats. Now she lives in Australia and, judging by the internet comments, she's going to be pilloried and judged as a liar for the rest of her life by a not insignificant section of society. Why shouldn't she use that money to make her life easier? Her life has been completely fucked over by her refusal to stay silent.

Why do all victims who speak out have to be selfless Virgin Marys, living in convents, crying all the time (but, you know, realistically , not like VG was doing in her interview...) donating any money they earn to charity (i.e. to real victims). It's just a small symptom of the Perfect Victim trope and it pisses me right off.

SerendipityJane · 04/12/2019 13:38

Absolutely. Well illustrated on this thread by the 'maybe PA has PTSD' point.

Are the schools off today ?

For the extremely hard of thinking I did not excuse PAs behaviour on account of anything. Re-read what I wrote (if you can).

And if anyone managed to find me misogynistic before some other posters on this thread, then I do find myself wondering what their criteria might be ?

Maybe I'll leave this thread to a bunch of women discussing how girls are really the villains in this story. It's where it seems to be settling anyway. Or maybe I won't.

Brimful · 04/12/2019 13:42

It's just a small symptom of the Perfect Victim trope and it pisses me right off.

Exactly. If I could raise money (and awareness) via an interview, I bloody well would have. It would have been beneficial to have funds for much needed private counselling and support.

There's no amount of money that can undo what's been done, but funds help to access support and rebuild lives.

Evilmorty · 04/12/2019 13:51

Prince Andrews fee for the interview is an entire life’s worth of privilege and luxury, on the tax payer. Where can he donate that to? He might need some financial advice because so far he seems to have spent a fair amount of it on flights to private shagging islands. Very noble of our country’s Prince.

Let VG enjoy her money. It’s no ones business and if doesn’t make the truth any less true.

ohprettybaby · 04/12/2019 13:56

Add posters making generalisations to this thread.
Yes, there are loads of posters making generalisations.

I haven’t seen any man-hating on this thread. Can you provide examples?
There have been comments about rich men as if those with money are all assumed to be sexual predators. Commenting about "middle aged men" in a derogatory way as if no teenager would ever consider them attractive. Also the lack of going after the woman, Maxwell, also accused of sexual abuse by VG. Was her behaviour not in the same category as his? Her behaviour hasn't been criticised anywhere near as much as Epstein's. Isn't it as bad or worse?

There is a vein running through the whole thread about men when we should be referring to specific men.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 14:04

@SerendipityJane

Maybe I'll leave this thread to a bunch of women discussing how girls are really the villains in this story. It's where it seems to be settling anyway. Or maybe I won't.

Righto, you’re the one saying PA’s ‘conduct is maybe a manifestation of PTSD’, we have challenged that and therefore that shows we are saying ‘how girls are really the villains in this story.’

Does that make sense in your head? Because it sure as hell makes zero sense in mine.

Pumperthepumper · 04/12/2019 14:06

There is a vein running through the whole thread about men when we should be referring to specific men.

Jesus Christ, this is the worst NAMALT I’ve ever seen on here. What a reach. Imagine saying a 17 year old wouldn’t find a forty year old man attractive! It’s madness!

AngelsSins · 04/12/2019 14:07

Commenting about "middle aged men" in a derogatory way as if no teenager would ever consider them attractive

Fuck me, that’s what upsets you about this thread???
I'm done.

Pumperthepumper · 04/12/2019 14:14

Isn’t it incredible?! The absolute fact that grown fucking men, married, middle-aged men, will leave their children at home to hang out with young girls barely older that those children, and take the opportunity to fuck them without thinking for one fucking second about how those young girls got there, or why, and then just....forget!

And people crawl over themselves to believe that because the absolute fact is - nobody gives a shit what men do. If men, all men, really cared about women being sex trafficked and young girls being exploited and me too and Harvey Weisnstein and Rotherham and the endless, endless examples we have of Middle aged men getting what they want then it wouldn’t happen.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 14:15

@ohprettybaby lots of quoting without context there in your post. No one has said all rich men or middle aged men do this.

And people have criticised GM and said she should be jailed but of course people are going to focus on the most serious allegations of rape.

ohprettybaby · 04/12/2019 14:15

Prince Andrews fee for the interview is an entire life’s worth of privilege and luxury, on the tax payer.
I don't think he can rely on future payments from Prince Charles when the Queen dies. I think he'll have to live out the rest of his life in anonymity on whatever funds he has atm.

FudgeBrownie2019 · 04/12/2019 14:19

How many women are reading this knowing they're the ones the predators hear coming? How many women are reading this knowing that despite their awful treatment in the past, other women are still going to make excuses for those predators? And how the fuck can we support and care for society's most vulnerable people when we have posts like this showing us that not only are there male misogynists but plenty of female ones doing their shitty work for them?

lyralalala · 04/12/2019 14:20

I don't think he can rely on future payments from Prince Charles when the Queen dies. I think he'll have to live out the rest of his life in anonymity on whatever funds he has atm.

I think he'll always have at least his basic expenses covered by his brother. The royals have their own secrets and they rely on each other to never spill. Even Edward VIII was funded (although he moaned about the level of it). The Queen's son will never be completely cut off by his family imo.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 14:24

Commenting about "middle aged men" in a derogatory way as if no teenager would ever consider them attractive

You have to be a middle aged man, surely @ohprettybaby

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