VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

"You’re a fucking idiot. Are you seriously so thick that you think men only rape because they “have” to, because no one will have sex with them? They rape because they enjoy it, they like the power, they think they’re entitled to it.

You are incredibly ignorant on this topic, you clearly have no idea of what it’s like to be abused as a child, of what predatory men are like. So go back to sticking your head in the sand and telling yourself they’re as bad as each other - maybe you believe that keeps you safe? Makes you better than other women? Gives you protection if you pander to the type of men who defend this shit.

You’re an absolute fool."

Cambridge dictionary.org: forum noun [C] (INTERNET):

a place on the internet where people can leave messages or discuss particular subjects with other people at the same time.

Good thing MN provides a place for a friendly discussion, otherwise some people might take over with a bombastic and personal rant! (Rolls eyes)

Why would anyone make it up?

I think the issue is money. She was paid a significant amount by a newspaper to tell her story when the photo emerged. It wouldn’t have made a great story if she had said yeah I had a photo with Prince Andrew at Ghislaines flat then he went off to pizza
Express and I was forced to have sex with a non celeb.

But the newspaper story she was paid for was 4 years after she first made the allegations.

She was paid a significant amount by a newspaper to tell her story when the photo emerged.

From the Mail:
And journalist Michael Thomas, who was the first to copy the photograph in 2011, is convinced the picture is genuine because he found it in the middle of a bundle of photographs.

He said: 'It wasn't like she pulled the photo of Prince Andrew out, it was just in amongst the rest of them.

They were just typical teenage snaps. There's no way that photo is fake'.

The photo of the pair - with Maxwell also in frame - was first published in 2011 after the Mail on Sunday tracked down Virginia Giuffre and paid her $160,000 for her story.

She did not go touting her story round the papers, they came to her. Nor did she go round with the photo, a journalist/photographer found it in her house.

When she first made the allegations she had to leave her home in Florida to evade angry retributive men. She lived in a trailer park in Colorado for a while. How would she have known then that FFW several years she might get paid for her story. And would that really be worth having to leave your home?

If she made the allegations before the paper paid her that makes her more convincing. I do believe that she thinks she’s telling the truth. However the photo doesn’t prove anything . We know PA was Ghislaines friend at the time so perfectly normal for him to be at her flat. Memories can become distorted and confused over time.

But the grooming was prior to that surely?

VR had been sexually abused as a child. So when taking her clothes off she would have likely been compliant. I can tell you from experience that SA skews your sense of appropriate boundaries in terms of physical conduct and behaviour and this can continue for decades.

From my personal experience it leaves a certain 'mark' on you that predatory men can sniff out in minutes (sorry for survivors on this thread, this is my opinion based on my experience).

I say this because a few years after being forced to leave home I was directly targeted by another perve at work. Someone I didn't even speak to. I was the dowdiest least noticable woman in a space full of gorgeous girls. But this guy somehow sniffed out that I was ...not like them. He sexually assaulted me. Bang in the midst of hundreds of work colleagues.

I switched immediately to my previous reactions of abuse. Body mind disassociation and freezing like a statue.

Then I went back to work like everything was fine.

Stayed for years. Happened once more.

My reaction was skewed as fuck.

I only got upset abput it when I was having counselling at 36 years old.

So. Please stop expecting an abuse victim to act like you.

I want to add that you would have seen me doing first class acting with this guy. Seen me smiling. Laughing. Not seen me cringing necessarily, although I would try to swap seats when sitting next to him etc. So you can imagine if I had reported him how that would have gone down for me.

I STILL have issues with this as a woman in my forties. I struggle to summon up the proper response to men transgressing boundaries. I have to mentally coach myself. My first reaction is compliance. Not complain if a man puts his hand on my bum or keeps requiring extended hugs. I have had to talk to men I trust, to work out better strategies of coping. To work out that I can cut the shit immediately without direct confrontation which I find hard.

CatherineOfAragon speaks the truth

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook

From my personal experience it leaves a certain 'mark' on you that predatory men can sniff out in minutes (sorry for survivors on this thread, this is my opinion based on my experience).

I agree with you. I had some utterly horrific childhood experiences and for years as an older teenager I was convinced I somehow gave off a dog whistle sound that only predators could hear. I would be pressured into uncomfortable situations all the time, things that never happened to my 'normal' friends or colleagues: Taxi drivers driving me home would park up in a quiet street and ask me for a blowjob, a man whose shop I regularly walked past on my way from work lay in wait for me one day and invited me into his storeroom, a pedestrian on the street would change direction and pester me to come into his nearby house and have sex with him. Without ever speaking to me they knew that I wasn't like everybody else. They knew I didn't have proper boundaries and could be exploited.

The thing that really blows my mind is that none of them knew each other. There were all these individual men, acting completely alone who were opportunistic predators on vulnerable girls.

I have absolutely no trouble believing VG and all the other girls were abused by Epstein and didn't 'run away screaming' or 'just say no' as other posters have claimed they would do. Seeing all the victim blaming posts on this thread makes me glad that I never reported my abuse. I could never allow my entire history, life and integrity to be publically torn to shreds like has happened to Virginia Guiffre. She is so brave.

My first reaction is compliance.

This is such a common survival strategy, you're not alone whatsoever- it's instinct and it doesn't mean you're any less of a victim because you cannot physically fight what's happening.

Mentally fighting the trauma happening to you includes dissociation and compliance, it's a total myth that you will automatically physically 'fight back'.

It goes back to the stigma and ridiculous thinking that a victim (as a PP has said) is only a 'true' victim if they're black and blue from the struggle of the event. It's simply not true.

@SerendipityJane

Maybe his subsequent conduct is a manifestation of PTSD

Now I’ve heard it all - PTSD being used as an excuse for men abusing young girls 🙄

So. Please stop expecting an abuse victim to act like you.

I have in no place said I would behave in any way at all. I have no idea at all how I'd have behaved in this situation or what I'd have done.

Specifically grooming is a stage prior to things being out of control. It is where victims are snared in using incitements/ fancy boyfriend with lots of money etc. That is a the only point I was making. Not all abuse even includes grooming, if the victim is known for example.

Does anyone remember Apple Tree Yard? This scene always sticks in my head - a woman who has been raped, her husband explains why you don’t fight back -

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ywOjU1oaiOY

Now I’ve heard it all - PTSD being used as an excuse for men abusing young girls

Maybe get someone to read my post to you again ? I wasn't excusing anything, just commenting on it being a possibility. And - pardon me - also noting that generally the support offered to PSTD suffering soldiers is almost as shitty as some of the attitudes and comprehension on this thread. As it slowly dies under the weight of poison thrown in by a bunch of people who seem determined to create a defence for abusers that does not, should not, and as long as I draw breath will not exist.

Have whilst you listen to what I wrote.

I don't think Virginia would have started off thinking she was having a great time. She had to massage a nude man and then had her own clothes removed.

But the grooming was prior to that surely?

In her interview she said she arrived at the house and there was a naked man lying on a massage table and she thought that was normal because she was training to be a masseuse.

She said she told them show grateful she was to be given a chance to train as a masseuse because of her previous history (dysfunctional family, abuse) and she said that was a big mistake because they knew they had her when she said that. She was easy prey then, easy to manipulate and control.

@SerendipityJane

Maybe get someone to read my post to you again ? I wasn't excusing anything, just commenting on it being a possibility. And - pardon me - also noting that generally the support offered to PSTD suffering soldiers is almost as shitty as some of the attitudes and comprehension on this thread. As it slowly dies under the weight of poison thrown in by a bunch of people who seem determined to create a defence for abusers that does not, should not, and as long as I draw breath will not exist.

I don’t give a shit about any PTSD soldiers who rape or coerce women into having sex. I truly fucking don’t.

Have biscuit whilst you listen to what I wrote.

Have a for your shitty misogynistic views.

It's truly horrible, no more or less.

*CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook yes this is how I've reacted from child abuse to early adult rape. I've felt like I have had a beacon on my head saying abuse me. I'm now 24 years into a fantastic marriage but always always on guard and constantly analysing things. Xx

That's horrible @PippiDeLena, I'm so sorry you've been through such shit, just why eh? Why do people target the vulnerable for their own twisted desires? There are evil people in this world Here's to better times ahead

I really am sick of high profile men and women being above the law. The law protects them, people keep saying naive things like let it go to court..or innocent till proven guilty...or let PA be questioned...none of that is possible because of his position. None of it. The normal rules do not apply. We should be upset about that. Upset that The Queen will never 'allow' Andrew to face questions.

And can someone explain Scotland Yard's excuse for not looking into her accusations? Something about the investigation would be mostly carried out abroad....oh ok then, except we know that hasn't prevented them spending considerable resources on high profile missing children from a certain middle class family, most of which has involved doing investigations abroad.

I know what I think.

And thanks @Brimful you're 100% correct of course.

Forums are a quick and easy way to facilitate communication and yet seem to be full of posters mis-communicating.

Posters claiming others are misogynists while the accusers sound like they hate all men. Posters overlooking the general tone of a post but nit-picking by taking one comment out of context. Posters projecting. Posters just ranting and venting and being rude or swearing at comments they disagree with.

Don't we all just want the same thing - for the Epstein/Maxwell 'situatuon' (for want of a better word) to be fully and openly investigated, for the girls and women involved to receive justice and for ALL perpetrators of crimes against them to be brought to justice?

I am actually fundamentally disturbed by the lengths some women will go to, to excuse men who rape children and women.
It’s actually vicious, the way some posters on here victim blame, or hold the parents of the victim in some way responsible, rather than the actual rapist.
54,000 rape offences recorded by police in 2017/18. That’s staggering and they are only the reported ones. As women, it is a huge issue we are facing; and yet I see (presumably) female posters defending these twats and blaming women for their actions. Why are women held accountable for the acts of men?
Following some of the comments on news articles (evening standard) and I found reams of awful comments about VG, she is doing it for money, looks happy in photo, shouldn’t wear skimpy clothing, had it coming....all by women. Some of the most supportive comments were from men. That blew my mind.
I believe VG.

And can someone explain Scotland Yard's excuse for not looking into her accusations?
Well it would be good if the DM was reading and decided to launch a campaign to find out why Scotland Yard haven't investigated this.

Some of the squabbling on thread is horrendous. I'm sure we all agree that what's gone on with Epstein, Maxwell and their associates is a giant cesspit of abuse and unlawful activities.

I've found the links above to articles from the Miami Herald very eye opening and also the Channel 4 Dispatches documentary The Prince and The Paedophile, which revealed things not shown or said in the BBC interviews.
www.channel4.com/programmes/the-prince-the-paedophile

Regardless of what, if any, charges could be brought against PA, he and his standing are for ever tarnished in public opinion by his associations, his attitude and his choice of responses to what is known beyond any doubt or interpretation.

I'm sad and sorry that the victims will likely never see proper justice. Epstein's previous conviction was laughable and just serves to demonstrate how the wealthy can manipulate the due course of law.

I'm no conspiracy theorist as a rule, but this all smacks of some very powerful people pulling the strings behind the scenes and I really doubt it will be properly investigated and resolved.

Also: @PippiDeLena for years as an older teenager I was convinced I somehow gave off a dog whistle sound that only predators could hear.

This description is so on the money. It really is like that, a whistle that predatory men can hear. You really start to think it's something you're doing. It's not. I don't know what it is, I can't hear it but they sure as hell can.

@WingingItSince1973 so happy for your 24 year marriage! Hope you have another 24 years more you bloody deserve all the happiness you can get out of this life!