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Original poster

VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

999 replies

churchandstate · 03/12/2019 07:05

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

OP posts:
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7
Teateaandmoretea · 04/12/2019 07:48

because she realised much later on that the glamorous lifestyle she believed she enjoyed at the time was actually sleazy and horrible.

Yep well that's kind of the point isn't it? Victims of any type of grooming start off thinking they are having a great time.

PA is clearly a total sleazeball. Men in their 40s having sex with girls in their teens is just wrong regardless of anything else. He thinks he's special and that having sex with him is a privilege 🤢. He considers that the likes of this girl are just willing slappers. However, that he went to these parties not thinking there was anything dodgy or that if Mummy found out she'd be cool with it is rather far fetched. It was a different time, but she was surely only a couple of years younger than Beatrice?

There won't be a prosecution though whether it is an actual crime or not, I would put money on that. In a way it would be in PA's interests if there was because when he was acquitted for lack of evidence (most rape/ sexual assault cases) it would be his 'proof' of innocence in the eyes on many.

Teateaandmoretea · 04/12/2019 07:50

Abuse victims don't have vendettas.

Well they may well have vendettas but surely they have every right to. I have a close friend who was abused she definitely has vendettas, this is surely reasonable and to be expected.

Acciocats · 04/12/2019 07:54

’Abuse victims don't have vendettas‘

What a ridiculous generalisation to make. Anyone can have a vendetta

Brimful · 04/12/2019 08:35

I think he did sleep with VR, but I don't think it ever entered his head she was not willing. I think he is stupid, entitled and ignorant.

Bullshit. If it happened as alleged, he's guilty of taking advantage of a young girl in the worst way possible. He is a powerful man in terms of money, fame, privilege, connections - he is very aware of this and he was happy and willing to abuse this position. He has daughters, he should feel protective of young girls and not turned on.

Abuse doesn't wear a balaclava and hold a knife to your throat, abuse befriends you and makes you think it's all okay, and if you just touch this, do that, lie there, it'll all be fine.

Predators don't wear a T-Shirt saying 'dangerous' - they wear the face of a normal person extremely well and lure you into their web. They're experts. A vulnerable girl has no chance once they're targeted.

ARoomWithoutADoor · 04/12/2019 08:54

Re the concept of 'Vendetta'

The very word used by a lawyer to explain to a survivor why the CPS would not take action against the man who'd actually admitted sex with her as a 15 yr old (and letters between him and the accusers mother where they reference the child complaining of specific abuse aged 4), when the survivor sought justice as an adult in her 20s.

Oh, and also the breakdown she'd experienced as a result of finally fully facing the family culpability (abuser was family member, mother knew) made her a 'less than credible witness to the jury' apparantly. And there was also the 'potential loss of employment for the adult working male with children to support now he was separated' (his wife had had a breakdown too, prior to the abuse allegations made)

But the main thing that stood out was' Vendetta'. Not 'seeking justice'.

Mymycherrypie · 04/12/2019 09:10

Personally I found the falklands war reference particularly rubbish because was he ever actually in the line of fire? And i say this next bit presuming that he either wasn’t or was under massive protection whilst out there so in no way comparable with a non royal civilian soldier - lots of people are in the line of fire in Central London ganglands, lots of people have suffered harrowing stabbing attacks, lots of elderly are afraid in their own beds of being burgled and beaten to death... have any of them not been able to sweat?

If this is a real condition, present the doctors note Andrew. Which I am sure could be bought anyway. You can’t believe a single word.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 09:13

@ARoomWithoutADoor thanks for this. This is why I think ‘vendetta’ is a loaded word and causes issues, as in the example you provided.

Vendetta is defined as a ‘motivational grudge’ ‘having it in for someone’, ‘a bitter destructive feud’. It’s all very negative where as abuse victims are seeking justice.

Perisoire · 04/12/2019 09:16

@Mymycherrypie

If this is a real condition, present the doctors note Andrew. Which I am sure could be bought anyway. You can’t believe a single word.

Except that he has mysteriously recovered from this affliction!

Plus there’s dozens of pictures posted on Twitter of him sweating in that period.

Also found the line ‘I don’t do PDAs’ hilarious given there’s dozens of pics of him with his arms around nubile young women.

ARoomWithoutADoor · 04/12/2019 09:21

Perisoire

In this case the 'motivation' was that the survivor was worried about the abuser babysitting other family members young children (he did)

Why should anyone seeking justice be painted as 'vengeful vendetta/ money / attention grabbing'?

If the accused has committed the crime, that is ALL that matters, not the 'character / motives' of the victim.

I expected VG to be given a hard time, and she is being. Its horrible.

LillianGish · 04/12/2019 09:39

Just read the Miami Herald link and what strikes me is how very similar this whole affair is to the Rochdale and other grooming cases. The only difference is that Epstein and Maxwell offered more glamorous locations and rich, well connected ‘clients’. Watching the Panorama documentary, the testimony I found most chilling was from the woman who described being flown on a private jet to Epstein’s island (naively imagining she was living the life) and then realising why she was there and the fact that she could not get off. Epstein’s ‘suicide’ was convenient for many of his friends in high places - PA being the least of them. The fact that Panorama was able to compare and contrast Guifre’s testimony with PA’s defence in the same programme left me in no doubt as to who I believe.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 04/12/2019 09:43

I do think if I'd been in her position, I'd have tried to get some money out of Epstein privately before blowing cover (& before he died of course!) - and if it was sufficient, I would have kept my mouth shut. I read that some people did receive pay offs, maybe Virginia G did too, we'll never know, but she obviously hopes to get a lot more now.

What a foul and sickening comment.

You obviously judge everybody by your own (apparently not very high) standards.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 04/12/2019 09:47

I think randy Andy's goose is cooked now

They should chuck the lazy, arrogant, entitled, libidinous git off the civil list.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 04/12/2019 09:52

Her is the Fergie interview where she refers to herself in the third person.

I always think that there is something deeply psychologically wrong with people who refer to themselves in the third person.

Sagradafamiliar · 04/12/2019 10:03

*Foul and sickening comment
*
Isn't it just. I can't comprehend why there is more focus on the 'motivations' or 'vendettas' of victims/speculation as to what is going on in their heads and lives and less onus on the actual ACTIONS of abusers. Talk of keeping mouths shut and 'just saying no'. I've realised that my face is twisted in disgust reading this shit. I'm leaving the thread. It's too disheartening.

Acciocats · 04/12/2019 10:09

This isn’t some game where people need to pick a side - team PA or team VR.

I find PA disgusting; his arrogance and entitlement are sickening. VR doesn’t have those traits but neither did I find her interview convincing. None of us know where the precise truth lies, or what any individual’s motives are - and motives are often complex not singular anyway.

Devereux1 · 04/12/2019 10:15

Personally I found the falklands war reference particularly rubbish because was he ever actually in the line of fire?

I have doctors in the family. None of them have ever heard of the no-sweating-because-of-increased-adrenaline-from-being-in-the-Falklands condition, or anything remotely like it, that Prince Andrew said he had.

SerendipityJane · 04/12/2019 10:27

Personally I found the falklands war reference particularly rubbish because was he ever actually in the line of fire?

Yes - very much so. He took his helicopter into the direct line of fire to help sailors in the water be rescued. No one has ever questioned his conduct or bravery in the face of danger in the Falklands. Well, until you did just now.

I really despise the Royal Family for a lot of reasons, and have no doubt that PA is much more of an entitled prick than not. But to be fair, when he was serving he didn't duck danger. Maybe his subsequent conduct is a manifestation of PTSD we know any soldier can suffer and rarely gets the treatment it needs ? Flying a helicopter into enemy fire to help rescue roman candles from the water must have left trauma .....

cakeisalwaystheanswer · 04/12/2019 10:27

It is very sad to see read all the comments of this thread which somehow imply that money makes somes thing ok. If normal people hold that belief it is hardly surprising that the very rich think that they can do as they please. No it is not ok for rich people to abuse young girls because they can do so in a background of affluence and luxury travel and have the means to pay compensation. I am seriously concerned that society has lost the ability to see what is morally right.

ohprettybaby · 04/12/2019 10:39

I've been on the Miami Herald site and was surprised that VG is not making any claims against Donald Trump, Bill Clinton and Al Gore. I don't know about Al Gore but Trump and Clinton don't have the best reputations with regard to women.
Didn't these powerful people see anything at Epstein's homes? Did Bill Clinton see the picture of himself in a dress and heels at Epstein"s New York home? Did Epstein remove incriminating items when he had visits from the elite?

derxa · 04/12/2019 10:44

I find PA disgusting; his arrogance and entitlement are sickening. VR doesn’t have those traits but neither did I find her interview convincing. None of us know where the precise truth lies, or what any individual’s motives are - and motives are often complex not singular anyway.
I believe that VR was trafficked and abused. Doesn't make her without flaws.

ohprettybaby · 04/12/2019 10:46

Yep well that's kind of the point isn't it? Victims of any type of grooming start off thinking they are having a great time.

I don't think Virginia would have started off thinking she was having a great time. She had to massage a nude man and then had her own clothes removed.

Penners99 · 04/12/2019 10:52

The Grand Old Duke of York
He had 10000 men
he also had some younger girls
but he cant remember them

AngelsSins · 04/12/2019 10:58

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ARoomWithoutADoor · 04/12/2019 11:03

I think 'vicitims of grooming' do not have a clear idea of what is happening to them, no.
the whole point is that the abuser skews their reality.
but they dont always 'think they are having a great time', no.

Teateaandmoretea · 04/12/2019 11:10

I don't think Virginia would have started off thinking she was having a great time. She had to massage a nude man and then had her own clothes removed.

But the grooming was prior to that surely?