VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

I think the thread should stand, but the misogynist posts should be deleted. You’d expect that of racism, no?

I agree; the misogynist and victim blaming posts are surely not in 'the spirit of Mumsnet' and should be deleted and those users banned.

Aside from the obvious facts that abused children are extra vulnerable to predators, a lot of young women find themselves in dangerous situations purely down to female socialisation and trying to be polite.

I was in situations with men as a young woman due to being "nice" which I would never allow to happen now. And I was just lucky that nothing really bad happened.

I personally think it should stay up so that when the victim blaming posters later start their own threads, people can advanced search them and see what absolute arseholes they are before writing things like “you sound lovely OP”

doublebarrellednurse - do you know where I could find that please?
(have never listened to a podcast before?)

Last night’s Panorama mentioned cameras and recording equipment were found in JE’s house.

I do wonder if PA going to see JE for 5 days to break off the friendship is because JE and GM actually had evidence.

I normally scoff at conspiracy theories but suspect there may be tapes and blackmail and all sorts relating to JE, GM and many powerful people.

I think the thread should stay up, horrific victim blaming posts and all. It's important for posters like Midas, Mummy and Ronald to be challenged openly, and so all lurkers can see the kind of abhorrent mentality that is prevalent in some circles.

At times on this thread I have honestly been gobsmacked that anybody could think these vulnerable teenaged girls shouldered any blame ('she had a hand in her own victimisation' and 'it was just straight sex, not abuse' were particular low points), especially, as a previous poster said, on a site populated mostly by women. You expect these views on the Daily Mail comment section, or 4chan, but not here. It's sad, and sickening.

@Passthecherrycoke Is right. It was at the time probably not clear to her it was wrong - being from the background she was she clearly didn’t have anyone decent to turn to or who could pull her back - going to expensive parties and making rich and powerful “friends” probably felt like an amazing existence - especially in comparison to what she came from. Whatever happened to make it click she probably now sees it wasn’t such a glided life of choice. The truth of it for him is that the entitled prick would not necessarily have cared she was (albeit legal) sooo many years younger and it was creepy as f*k and not appropriate for him to have sex with her. In his mind he is above everyone and no doubt highly desirable - why wouldn’t anyone with a pulse not want to🤷‍♀️ He is a Prince after all!

Brimful: I wish I could have said 'no' but I didn't know how, it was incredibly confusing and I felt what was happening was my fault. Terrified isn't the word. I am not weaker than you, I was simply in a circumstance you have been fortune enough to have never been in.
.........
I found that quite moving, Brimful. Been in the same position. Very frightening and afterwards, numbness and (almost) disbelief.
A long time ago and we've both moved on, thankfully, but some things strike a chord and we're back where we were all those years ago.

& for us both.

Back to Andrew.

Probably get deleted for this but my main issue about the whole PA.VR situation is that I am struggling with the idea of JE procuring young GIRLS for him.

I can believe that he went to parties and nightclubs with them, as he would see having a young pretty female on his arm as a trophy to show off because he's a disgusting entitled buffoon. His vanity would make him want to be seen as "one of the boys" and his misogyny would mean he saw those girls as less than human, just items to be possessed. But actual sex? Not his style from the rumours that have been around for many years now.

Horrible thread. Horrible things happened to GIRLS. Who in their right mind would think it was ok to do what PA (allegedly) and others did? What makes a fat, sweaty, middle aged man think that beautiful young girl is just gagging to have sex with him? I believe VR, and the others - coercion through and through.

He's known to have slept with a string of other (willing) women though hasn't he. Hence 'Randy Andy'.

That was in response to Yambabe

What's to say whether, if she said 'no' when they tried to take her clothes off, she wouldn't have been able to just walk out of there before they did anything to her?

I think this is probably the most stupid thing I’ve ever seen written on the internet, and that’s saying something. What’s to say anything? It’s like saying ‘What’s to say if someone was trying to murder you you just walked away and they forgot all about it’. Do you not think she thought about trying to walk away and if she felt it was an option would have done so?

Yolofish “What makes a fat, sweaty, middle aged man think that beautiful young girl is just gagging to have sex with him?”

Whilst as a woman I would agree with you personally 🤢.. the answer is The same thing Hugh Hefner had going for him ... these men do not see themselves through the eyes of “normal folk” they think they are amazing... PAs interview highlights the sheer entitlement he feels by virtue of his birth - why do this at the palace other than remind us all how above it all he is? If he were some sweaty old man from the pub probably would not have any delusions but the British press and royalists have made them untouchable and sadly “desirable” ( at least in their own eyes). He just doesn’t see himself as a sweaty disgusting fat bloke 💁

@Bluerussian I'm so sorry for what you've been through; I'll add to the cake and cuppa. You're completely right, sometimes things strike a chord and it feels somewhat suffocating to know there are people out there with victim-blaming opinions, with zero empathy or thought for the lives these powerful predators ruin. But here's to us, still here :)

I hope the poor victims recover as best they possibly can and above all know that nothing that happened to them was their fault.

I too found myself in difficult situations as a vulnerable teen. Nothing as horrific. The feeling of not wanting to appear immature or a silly little girl, together with shame and guilt that it was somehow my fault and couldn't back out. It's quite a powerful mix.

and so all lurkers can see the kind of abhorrent mentality that is prevalent in some circles.

As everyone doesn’t know. Do we just let racism stand so everyone can see racism is prevalent?

Why do women just accept misogyny and victim blaming as part of the wallpaper?

As if everyone doesn’t know ^^

@TatianaLarina

It's not about accepting it. It's about holding it up to the light of scrutiny and condemning it for what it is.

Hiding it isn't going to help IMHO.

What makes a fat, sweaty, middle aged man think that beautiful young girl is just gagging to have sex with him?

There's a certain mentally that can develop with these powerful men.

A famous man like PA has plenty of fangirls and women who did - and probably still do, all this aside - want to sleep with him. Gorgeous hot women. He's PA and as a pp mentioned, when he was nearer 40 he was a very decent looking eligible divorced bachelor.

I hate saying it, but you hear about famous men - some frankly couldn't pull without a rope if they were not famous because they are not lookers in any universe (think Melania and Trump) - and many women do go for them. That some of these women may have issues with themselves is neither here or there to these men. It serves to inflate their puffed up self image. There are pics of PA dancing with very attractive women.

The actor Jamie foxx said he found it shocking that before he was famous he'd be in a club struggling to get women to notice him. But when he became famous he'd walk into the same club and women who would never be interested previously would pursue him. He seemed to find it sobering rather than a great perk of success.

I think that sort of unrealistic pulling power can get to some mens heads. So that they really can believe 'this woman is desperate to sleep with me'. Even lucky. That is every woman except the ones they don't want to sleep with, in which case poor them missing out from the magic penis. The 'positive act' response bears out some of this attitude.

The more sinister side is that the 'thrill of the sexual chase' has gone and it's no longer a challenge, but some fresh, forbidden, somewhat naive fruit is still a challenge...

Too much hedonism and too much power and too many sychophants telling you yes all the time.

It's not about accepting it. It's about holding it up to the light of scrutiny and condemning it for what it is.

Hiding it isn't going to help IMHO.

And yet racist posts get deleted, as they should.

Not a question of ‘hiding’ but about boundaries around what is acceptable.

TheMidasTouch

I know what I was like at 16 and that is who I am talking about. I would not have taken off my clothes for anyone and I'd have fought off anyone who tried inserting a vibrator into my vagina.

No, you wouldn't. As a rape victim in a situation where there were two of them against one, and both of them took their turn with me, I'm telling you right now that wouldn't stand an earthly. Nor, apparently, do you understand the way in which the mind shuts down and disassociates itself when undergoing extreme trauma.

You don't have a clue, so it's pointless speculating about what you 'would' do.

Rape is not a consensual act, and coercion is rape. If you're unfortunate enough to happen to be a victim, you don't get a say.

Where can I watch this?

In the case of Virgins Roberts, and only her, she is not saying PA raped her, she said she had sex and felt dirty afterwards.

PA's body language was TERRIBLE. He came across as a grandiose, haughty liar, he thinks the public is stupid.
She came across as straightforward, and her story made sense. Her body language was not at all incongruent with what she said.

I KNEW PA was lying, but the extent of his involvement is horrifying.