VG/Prince Andrew - to say I wasn’t sure before but I believe her

[churchandstate]

I posted in a thread after the Prince Andrew interview, and although I didn’t believe him about everything he said, I wasn’t wholly convinced at that time that he was lying about sleeping with young girls, about seeing things in Epstein’s houses that should have repelled him, about having sex with Virginia Roberts in particular. I just didn’t think there was certainty to be had.

I am convinced now. I believed every word she was allowed to say last night and I am only sad they didn’t give her more air time. Prince Andrew has very serious questions to answer.

@didofido I see your point to some extent (she wasn’t a call girl though) BUT I think the real issue is his relationship with Epstein is is likely to be-
A rapist
A peadophile (I know they were underage teenage girls rather than pre pubescent children but will use that word)
A fraudster/ tax evader/head of ponzi scheme
A blackmailer
A sex trafficker

The main problem for PA re VG is she means he can’t lie. He can’t deny involvement. This and the photos taken in Central Park/ video of him at Epstein’s door have unmasked him.

theY mean He is struggling to deny the true nature of his relationship with Epstein. they are evidence

I believe her.

who know what their task is.

The words you use are interesting.

I’d have said “who knows what will be done to them”

And actually a really good thing that could come out of this is to expose the whole world of rich old men procuring going beautiful vulnerable women for sex.
It’s what’s happening all over the world, in yachts, in penthouses, in country estates and top hotels. It’s common, and the lid needs to be blown on these men

millionaire procures call-girl for millionaire friend"

She is not a sex worker. She was a victim of trafficking. Groomed and abused. Not a "call girl".

Was uncomfortable with VG using the word "trafficked", a word normally applied to girls from poor countries who are deceived as to why they coming to the UK, not to those arriving by private jet who know what their task is.

You have an exceptionally minimal and close minded view of what grooming, coercion and trafficking looks like then. You may as well go down the route on the other thread of she "doesn't look like a victim" 😳

She may have "known what her task was" but she had no choice. She did not consent as she was coerced. She couldn't leave. She was groomed and abused. She was trafficked because child rape is not a crime in the states. That is the crime Epstein was charged with - trafficking minors.

I'm really struggling with how, in this modern era of me too etc women are saying that a fiscally poor, neglected girl under 18, who came from a rough background, is not a victim because she was flown by rich men around the world to be used as a sec object. It's a vile attitude to hold. Whatever happened to women supporting women?

Mummy2017 you’re being ridiculous. What’s is the point of this red flag talk? No one is saying there wasn’t red flags! VG is saying no one cares anyway so who would act on the red flags? You’re talking nonsense.

Abuse usually does have red flags. Doesn’t stop it happening.

@Bluerussian doubt you’d get the £160k doing it anonymously- why would a paper be interested in that?

"Was uncomfortable with VG using the word "trafficked", a word normally applied to girls from poor countries who are deceived as to why they coming to the UK, not to those arriving by private jet who know what their task is." Seriously? !!!!!!!!!!

Sex traffickers transporting young girls around by private jet whilst retaining their passports does not make it ok. I hope to God some of these posters don't have daughters.

Was uncomfortable with VG using the word "trafficked", a word normally applied to girls from poor countries who are deceived as to why they coming to the UK, not to those arriving by private jet who know what their task is.

My brother works with trafficking victims. It's shocking how they have been brought to the UK and then used as sex slaves. He has to go different routes all the time because the traffickers are evil bastards that don't like it when 'their property' is saved.

Are you saying she wasn't a trafficking victim but a high class call girl/escort?

I think @doublebarrellednurse has explained it quite well.

And actually a really good thing that could come out of this is to expose the whole world of rich old men procuring going beautiful vulnerable women for sex.

Which has been going on since time immemorial. Not really sure how much more evidence some people need before it starts to look like they've already made their mind up anyway.

There are so many shades of gray.

This isn’t 50 Shades of Grey with Epstein in the role of Christian Grey you know. This is real life trafficking.

a newspaper has published an email PA sent to (Ghislaine) when news broke that Virginia was accusing JE of trafficking her. Now where's that suddenly come from, I wonder?

Probably from the same safe where they keep the rest of the so-far-unpublished dirt on the RF. Does anyone seriously doubt that they know a lot more than has yet been made public?

If she was forced she was trafficked, there are high class call girls/escorts who are trafficked. That's the point really. She managed to leave eventually, did she get a final pay off? I hope so. She now lives in Australia, is married with children.

I also wonder why all her attention is on her three encounters with Prince Andrew - she must have been with many others, probably more than three times.

No @Bluerussian she effectively ran away after they sent her to Thailand.

All the attention isn’t on her encounters with Prince Andrew- it’s only in the U.K. that it is

I've been reading with interest from a 'victim'of abuse point of view. I'll give some context of how some abused people think and react. Please bear with me this maybe long 😭

I was sexually abused by my stepfather age 6. I cant remember how long it went on for but I remember feeling that this was what all dads did to their children as that's what I was told at the time. I didnt like it and dreaded mum going to work in the eves as that's when it would happen. It was a chance remark to my nan that brought it all out in the open. It was only when my mum found the hidden physical evidence hidden behind a bath panel (stockings etc etc) that she split with him and for a while was just myself and half brother and mum at home. She still sent me with my brother for weekends at his house and day trips. I have no idea why and I cant remember if any abuse happened then. When I was 8 I had an awful experience during a school trip and had to be sent home early. I was terrified to sleep by myself so my mum and her new partner of the time locked me in downstairs cupboard or tied me to my bed with rope to stop me getting up and disturbing their sleep.

I also had alot of babysitters during my childhood. They were male. One used to bring his mates and they abused me. I never told anyone. Sort of just accepted this was life.

To all outsiders I was in a safe and caring environment. I confided in a friend that I was being tied up at night and she told my teacher. I denied it and it didnt go any further. I was 9.

Fast forward to age 16 I was raped by a family friend. I told no one except my boyfriend at the time who wanted to kill him but I convinced him not to. I spent my early adult years sleeping around. Married the wrong man. Had a daughter. Divorced. Met my current husband of 24 years and had two further daughters with him. I spent my 20s and 30s very mixed up. I treated my husband awfully at times because I couldn't understand why he was so nice to me and I constantly was over analysing him and his motives. I was also trying desperately to get my mums approval. She remarried when I was 11. My half brother died 13 years ago and his dad was invited to his funeral along with his family. He came up and shook my hand and I just accepted it! I was angry she had invited him as he really didnt have anything to do with my brother as he got older. But there we have it still not being taken seriously about what happened when I was little.

Fast forward I'm now 46 and in a great place in my life. I have a 4 year old grandson and he has issues because his dad hurt him when he was 8 months old and now hes suffering with attachment disorder. I have a great relationship with my mum and we never ever discuss my past. It's like it never happened.

I'm sharing this so some can see that despite being constantly abused even as a 16 year old, I didn't have the courage to stand up to all those that abused me and take them through the legal process. I should have because I'm aware I might not have been the only one but I'm terrified of the fallout. Would be catastrophic. What happened to these girls at what ever age needs to be taken seriously. JE abused girls over a very long period of time. Some tried to bring him to justice but he was a very very powerful man with connections (Bill Clinton spent alot of time at his island) Now he has died of course some feel safer to come forward. Imagine taking on the Royal Family? Or the most powerful men in USA? It's not inconceivable that PA did have sex with her. He certainly knew his friend was a convicted paedophile! Being a father himself I cant fathom why he would chose him as a friend.

Anyway sorry for long post. Not a pity post I just wanted to share from a point of view of someone who has been groomed and abused xxx

This does make her look like she is out for money and people may lack sympathy for her.

Only to people who are shallow and materialistic slash misogynist.

The payment came a long time after she first made the allegations and had to leave her home.

It needs a proper investigation with Scotland yard

Who could start with looking at the protection squads logs ...

Puzzledandpissedoff Tue 03-Dec-19 11:39:58
a newspaper has published an email PA sent to (Ghislaine) when news broke that Virginia was accusing JE of trafficking her.
....
Yes, I noted that an email was found from him - didn't say much though, was quite innocuous.

Ghislane is apparently co-operating with the FBI, I'll be interested to hear what she has to say about her role in all this. From what I've read she was besotted with Epstein, even hoped to marry him - fat chance.

I do wonder how some of these people - like Epstein - are able to virtually weave a spell over others. He was extremely influential and well thought of in many circles. There are still people saying how they will always be grateful for their association with him, they learned so much, met so many people and were greatly helped by his support. Mind boggles.

WingingIt

I applaud your bravery for your post and I’m so sorry for your experiences.

Winging it I’m so sorry

I think the whole thing is so murky that it will be absoutely impossible to get to the full truth of the situation. PA probably needs to be permanently retired and out of the public domain, regardless. Money is changing hands and the media seems to be conducting the investigation and I don't think that is the way to get to the bottom of anything.

Honestly people struggling with the idea that VG is a victim listen to the Real Crime Profile podcast who explain in great detail how she was a victim. They are professionals explaining forensically how she was. They also talk about the kind of offender Epstein was and Ghislaine as well. It's very interesting I highly recommend.

@WingingItSince1973
So sorry for what you had to endure as a child. It wasn't right and I'm glad you are in a happier place now.

I believe her. I'm also a bit surprised at the posters who say they don't understand why she got upset during the interview (when she was talking about her shock at PA becoming involved/receiving services).

I'm guessing that if you have been abused from a young age you are aware that what is happening is wrong, and an expectation that, somewhere out there, there is a societal understanding that what is happening to you is deeply wrong. To then find that your abuse is accepted and condoned by those even at the VERY HIGHEST levels of society must be absolutely fucking devastating. When GM instructed VG to have sex with a member of the British royal family, all that VG heard was that literally no one gave a toss about her. It reinforced the notion that every single person who had abused her from childhood onward was perfectly entitled to do so.

I'm not surprised she cried her heart out at the memory of it. It must have been a properly devastating moment in her life.