AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

Dear God, Bertrand, have just read Ohio. Bunch of utter barking loons, words fail me. Beyond lunacy and utterly disgusting. I suggest everyone on here reads it and tells another woman. Don't think it can't happen here, sounds like it could be supported by Mogg and any of his acolytes. They won't keep him under wraps once Bozza gets his feet back under the table. Goddess help us.

Caring roles are not valued because they are traditionally done by women. One of the reasons feminism isn’t finished yet!

I think once you go onto the relationship threads you can now see loads of abuse apologists and misogyny. I think there are a lot of women still stuck in their female socialisation and they really can’t accept that women are as important as men and have the right to object to a man’s unwanted or violent behaviour. They seem desperate to excuse his behaviour and unintentionally encourage the woman into the passive reaction

I just don't get this. You generally find some shit hot advice helping women leave abusive men, and helping them understand the patterns of abuse. I haven't ever seen encouragement of passive reaction.

Why does feminism still assume a traditionally male way of living is better.

Don't know about "better" but men certainly hold the power in society. Who made the laws we abide by?

@PlanDeRaccordement

If you are not already a reader of FWR there are a vast number of threads on precisely those rights and the systematic and concerted drive toward erasure of womanhood/women’s rights (and by extension girlhood/girls’ rights), in tandem with an ideology that is incredibly dangerous and will become ever more harmful in so many ways for children and young people of both sexes unless it is stopped.

This really is so important.

I’m not too worried about Ohio. Many bills get introduced and never become laws. That is one that is dead on arrival. It’s up to Ohio and US women to see it never becomes law.

I tend to concern myself more with the unjust laws women are already living under. For example the criminalisation of prostitution, where sex workers are the criminals instead of the real criminals, the sex buyers.

I do wish that back in the day women who are now old Crones like me has thought more about motherhood and caring responsibilities. But we were young and those things weren’t on our radar. The nearest we came to thinking about it was saying there should be 24 hour free childcare. If I could go back and talk to my 20 year old self I’d say you could probably spent a bit less time looking at your own cervix and a bit more time thinking about what you want to happen about looking after babies babies....

Ninkanik...no, I am new to mumsnet. What is FWR?
I would be happy to go there and read more. Thank you for the advice.

It did actually make sense for me to be a SAHM. That doesn’t stop me being aware that it was the most non-feminist decision I have ever made.

But why? What’s ‘unfeminist’ about raising children?? If your other half had been a SAHD and you went to work I’m taking it that would have been a feminist choice then? But is that what feminism is? The reversal of all ‘traditional roles’? If a woman does something that’s seen as a ‘traditional woman’s role’ she’s making a non-feminist choice. If a man does something that’s seen as a ‘traditional woman’s role’ he’s praised and probably seen as a supportive feminist man. Hardly equality.

@PlanDeRaccordement it’s the ‘Feminist Chat’ in the Talk section here on Mumsnet.

@planderaccordement in some states in america it is an offence to have an abortion after 6 weeks - at which point many women don't even know they are pregnant - I think this applies in Ohio - so some of the crazy bills become law. I agree with you about criminalising prostitution.

Why does feminism still assume a traditionally male way of living is better.

Radical feminism doesn't, radical feminism wants to sweep away patriarchy and basically start again.

Intersectional feminism is also very concerned about how capitalism interacts with women and some intersectional feminists would say that we can't achieve freedom without overthrowing capitalism.

But no-one likes radical feminists (cos they think 'radical' means 'kill small boy children and grow your armpit hair' and no-one likes intersectional feminists because they like money, so...)

Tongue clearly in cheek by the way. But no, not all feminism assumes a traditionally male way of living is better. But while we wait for the patriarchy to burn and for capitalism to crumble, why shouldn't we have the same slice of the pie as men do?

Oh, so FWR= feminist chat on mumsnet. Thank you for letting me know what that was ninkanink.

Caring roles are not valued because they are traditionally done by women. One of the reasons feminism isn’t finished yet!

I don’t see how you can say that while also saying that being a SAHM is not a feminist choice. You don’t seem to value caring roles that much yourself.

Whether a choice is feminist or not depends upon the woman and whether she is making that choice with eyes open and has no more or less freedom and opportunity in making that choice as a man in her same situation would presented with the same choice.

I disagree with this. First of all, seldom does a woman have the same freedom and opportunity to make choices that men do. And whether a choice is feminist or not has to be viewed in the larger societal context, which heavily polices the choices that women make. So, for example, when a woman changes her name on marriage, she has the weight of a patriarchal societal expectation weighing in favor of that choice.

That is not feminism- yes I do agree the US is behind for abortion laws and that some crazy bills become law. It’s sad to see the news reports there as well as other countries.

Pinkblueberry- I don’t mean to be snippy- but you missed off an important part of my post when you c&ped. I said that I made was a non feminist choice but In a different climate- or in a future utopian society it wouldn’t have been- in the one we’re in now it most certainly was.

@PlanDeRaccordement I’m not actually sure it’s just that section, it’s probably the Feminism topic all together. But feminist chat is very busy and has lots of really important current issues being discussed, including two historic court cases in the U.K.

But while we wait for the patriarchy to burn and for capitalism to crumble, why shouldn't we have the same slice of the pie as men do?

Why are you associating capitalism with patriarchy? Capitalism is the only economic system that has fully supported women’s rights and equality. Also, what if I don’t want the man’s piece of the pie as it comes full of toxic masculinity, aggression, competitiveness, valuing money over family, war over peace, and so on?

@planderaccordement in some states in america it is an offence to have an abortion after 6 weeks - at which point many women don't even know they are pregnant - I think this applies in Ohio - so some of the crazy bills become law.

This is not technically true at present. States have enacted laws like this, but they have been stopped by federal courts as unconstitutional violations of law under the Supreme Court decision of Roe v. Wade. However, if Roe is overturned, which is a very real possibility with recent appointments to the court, then abortion rights in many states will likely completely disappear.

Oh, so FWR= feminist chat on mumsnet.

Once upon a time the section was known as Feminism and Women's Rights, or FWR for short.

Then there was a big hoo-ha because many MNers complained that the FWR regulars weren't being welcoming enough (and the FWR regulars counter-complained that too many non-regulars were disrupting their conversations by making ignorant or goady posts). So MNHQ split the topic into a 'light' topic (Feminism chat) and some more serious topics (Feminist activism, etc).

Feminism has always been a contentious issue on Mumsnet.

that we can't achieve freedom without overthrowing capitalism

Capitalism has been more successful at delivering freedom than anything else in history. When it’s ‘overthrown,’ will collectivism replace it? If so what will ‘freedom’ look like?

I certainly wouldn’t call it the light option at the moment! But these things do develop organically, I guess.

Also thanks for the explanation on the acronym - I couldn’t for the life of me remember what it stood for! I knew I knew it but, you know.

Capitalism is the only economic system that has fully supported women’s rights and equality.

Are you kidding?

That's because it is patronising and there's no way to pretty it up.

Telling any woman "If you don't think correctly you are a misogynist" is pretty misogynistic...

Oh come on, you can't deny internalised misogyny is a thing. What about a woman whose dad was always harping on about how slutty women are in their short skirts asking for it, who then grows up to judge women who war short skirts as asking for it, who blame them for leading blokes on who rape them? Has that woman not grown up to internalise some of her fathers misogynistic views?