AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

Plan as nink pointed out there are lots of examples in FWR. Also, just today Amnesty released a report on female human rights activists being under attack. To quote: women activists are under growing pressure in recent years from politicians, religious leaders and violent groups "spreading politics of demonization," Amnesty said

So women activists are under more pressure than ever before.

Female politicians are more regularly subjected to death threats and abuse than ever before.This year, female politicians are standing down a decade earlier than their male counterparts in response to the abuse they've received. The Fawcett Society and others think less women will stand for elected positions because the situation has become so toxic.

So rather than more women moving into positions of influence which would have been my friends' hopes for their DDs. We have women stepping away from public life under death threats and intimidation.
Rape prosecutions are at a ten year low. When obviously we'd hoped awareness raising would lead prosecutions to increase. Instead, victims have less chance of seeing a perpetrator in court than they did 10 years ago.

There are many more examples of how women's ability to participate in public life is being lessened and how VAWG and threats of VAWG are being seen as an acceptable way to silence any challenging, female voices.

Oh come on, you can't deny internalised misogyny is a thing.

Internalised misogyny is a real thing that influences some women's reaction to sexism, but is also a thought-terminating cliche used by other women to dismiss opinions that differ from their own.

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.

I generally tend to try and stay away from certain posters, regarding female issues.

I agree, there seems to be more people excusing certain behaviour. But I think that applies to me and women.

In the last year I have seen a long standing poster be told that women never abuse their kids. Despite posters sharing their stories of abuse, it was met with 'women dont abuse their kids'

Another poster told she should give her mother sympathy for abusing her.

Women excused for affairs

So I woumd actually say that it just seems that there are more posters, willing to excuse poor behaviour in anyone.

I would also say theres been a massive increase in 'your boyfriend is a dick? Could he be autistic?' Again, grasping at straws to try to excuse poor behaviour.

Internalised misogyny is a real thing that influences some women's reaction to sexism, but is also a thought-terminating cliche used by other women to dismiss opinions that differ from their own.

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry, I thought the poser I was replying to was meaning it didn't exist in any sense.

Internalised misogyny is a real thing that influences some women's reaction to sexism, but is also a thought-terminating cliche used by other women to dismiss opinions that differ from their own.*
The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive
This ^^

I would also say theres been a massive increase in 'your boyfriend is a dick? Could he be autistic?' Again, grasping at straws to try to excuse poor behaviour
I think that happens across a range of threads.
MIL being an arse or having no barriers - clearly a narc, maybe she has dementia
Colleague being rude and unpleasant - maybe they have autism
DP is being feckless around the house and sulking over lack of sex - maybe he is depressed

Meanwhile offline some people are just rude and/or arseholes.

I have a sneaking suspicion that some users are not who they claim/potray to be.
Trolls are on the up and more subtle then before.

do wish that back in the day women who are now old Crones like me has thought more about motherhood and caring responsibilities.

They were. A few years back the was an article about one of the female pioneers of publishing on her retirement.

She earned more than the men.

She also took little or no maternity leave and certainly no time off for childhood illnesses etc. Housekeeper cleaner etc.

The gods honest truth is that she wasnt raising her children, someone else was. Like many sucessful men.

Its a bit like blueblue zoo observed. none of them took maternity leave, decided to go part time, take lesser roles etc - it was always women taking the hit for children, never men

I don’t see how you can say that while also saying that being a SAHM is not a feminist choice.

Yes this. And why arent we doing more to protect the choices of those who do take the hit?

AND WE DON'T NEED THE LANGUAGE OF SEX TO DO IT. A male taking those hits needs to same protection as a female. Maybe if we did start valuing both roles equally male might choose to take the hit to do more of the childrearing and women wouldnt have to worry about the man running off leaving her penniless.

systematic and concerted drive toward erasure of womanhood/women’s rights (and by extension girlhood/girls’ rights), in tandem with an ideology that is incredibly dangerous

Three different interesting conversations about womens rights on this thread. No need or reference to trans.

Until this

systematic and concerted drive toward erasure of womanhood/women’s rights (and by extension girlhood/girls’ rights), in tandem with an ideology that is incredibly dangerous

Which actually doesnt reference any of the points the conversations are raising....

And we wonder why we dont have this conversations in FWR.

VolcanionSteamArtillery - I’d happily answer your points- but I don’t really understand what you want me to answer.

Bertrand Russell:
I wonder what that means exactly "not valued" regarding caring roles. Should there be a Nobel prize for mothers? Is "taxi driver" a valued role? Maybe you can elaborate just a little bit. Is it about money? A lot of jobs are poorly paid.

@OrangeCinnamon I’m sure that’s true in some cases.

However I figure anything that results in one or two more women finding their way to FWR is a good thing, so I engage despite misgivings. NOT talking about anyone here specifically, more a general comment. If trolls want to fuck around with the very astute women they find there, they’re really just doing part of our work for us and ensuring that the word gets out to more people.

you can't deny internalised misogyny is a thing.
Most of feminism as it stands is still under the yoke of internalised misogyny. The need for seperate sex spaces has more in common with justifications for harems etc than most feminists might care to admit. The SAHM being an "unfeminist choice" because it isnt valued. Porn being inherently male.

happily answer your points- but I don’t really understand what you want me to answer.

But if i mentioned Transwomen in Bravissimo you'd have something to say? Isnt that the inherent problem...

They are not about trans issues it's the erasure of women that's the issue the fact that people call them "trans issues" shows the problem

That! And the troll that continue to poke and prod make FWR more and more single issue, becuase it is the single largest active threat to women and women's rights we currently have globally

To dismiss that as 'transphobic' and 'anti trans' is a trite dismissal of a very important issue and shows a great lack of understanding of those posts.

Bertrand is right though. Especially on the Relationships board. You see so much internalised misogyny: fall over your own, marvel at that of others. So much 'be nice' seen in one place it is quite depressing!

But if i mentioned Transwomen in Bravissimo you'd have something to say? Isnt that the inherent problem... Why is that a problem... and why keep on about BR's reactions to trans posts?

The need for seperate sex spaces has more in common with justifications for harems etc than most feminists might care to admit.

Just trying to unpack that.

To dismiss that as 'transphobic' and 'anti trans' is a trite dismissal of a very important issue and shows a great lack of understanding of those posts

Is it though?

Not the criminisation of women who refuse to send children to abusive fathers? The lack of punishment to those who are actually convicted of committing acts violence or abuse to women. Etc etc etc

“ happily answer your points- but I don’t really understand what you want me to answer.

But if i mentioned Transwomen in Bravissimo you'd have something to say? Isnt that the inherent problem...”
Eh? No. I just don’t understand what you’re asking me!

The need for seperate sex spaces has more in common with justifications for harems etc than most feminists might care to admit. That's because you don't understand the reasons single sex spaces are being fought for.

Not for separatism. But for choice. The right for women to choose to retain something they have a legal right to. The right not to have that taken away by some men, just because.

Add to that the stats on safety and mixed sex toilets etc and you don't get the message "Put me in a harem for my protection" you get "Fuck off out of my space, do not use this as an additional ooprtunity to attack women and girls"

Different perspective!

The need for seperate sex spaces has more in common with justifications for harems etc than most feminists might care to admit
Hmm. Care to elaborate on this startling analogy?

Not the criminisation of women who refuse to send children to abusive fathers? The lack of punishment to those who are actually convicted of committing acts violence or abuse to women. Etc etc etc Do you think it is an either / or choice? That women are only allowed one cause at a time?

Have another look at FWR and Relationships and you will see very many threads on just those topics, woth many posters issuing calls to arms, and many others responding.

But they are ongoing fights. Loss of 'woman' is a newer fight, one that is being ADDED by legislation that is being smuggled in under our noses.

I can see that, and oppose it, whilst still doing what I can for other feminsist causes.

I think the fwr board contains a lot of highly educated women with clearly thought out strong opinions, focussed on current moves to broaden the definition of women. This is a good thing but they sometimes forget some of arent as educated and have been so bogged down with day to day life we havent formed such clear opinions.
I had to look up what misogeny meant!
I have been on MN for a long time, i wouldnt say the other boards are leas feminist but i do feel the tone is less supportive and more aggressive/cutting in general. But i think its the aibu boards that lead to that.

I suppose both single sex spaces and harems both meet at the axis of removing women from the male gaze.

And thst women couldnt possibly live, bath or be in the same space as men. We must have seperate spaces for womens own protection. We limit the movement of women rather condemning male entitlement

I would be more interested in posting on the feminist boards but honestly, the trans stuff is overwhelming. I do recognise that there is a problem with identity politics but, not in the way people think.

“ And thst women couldnt possibly live, bath or be in the same space as men.”

Well, I don’t want to bath at least in the same space as men I don’t know.. do you?