AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

“ Plus if anyone uses the MRA term I just think fuck off.”

What- even if the poster obviously is one?

For as long as I've been on here years and years there have been posters supportive of porn and prostitution. I don't think that is a new shift. But I do think if someone joins now then MN doesn't have an underlying feminist focus whereas when I joined, it felt radically different from every other website. It was challenging of every status quo and completely and utterly supportive of women carving out their place in every area of their life.

Now, you can't even ask a question like you did at the start of this thread without posters coming to derail it, ask what about the men, etc. It reminds me a little bit of Jezebel where something that is supposed to be for and about women becomes popular, gets inundated and all the original reasons that attracted people are lost. It's an assimilation into the expected 'norms' of a patriarchal society. I don't think it's accidental.

It pretty much just a trans issues board now, when there’s plenty of other things going on with regards to feminism.

Feel free to post about those other things.

If they are one fine but not me. I think I was talking about something as innocuous as a woman training for a marathon and mentioned double standards. Might not have even been on feminism boards but god it was irritating.

The fact that it’s always assumed a woman hasn’t thought of these things is ingrained prejudice in itself!

I don’t think they do though.

I’m in my 50’s now and just starting to realise i am going to struggle pension wise. I’m very financially astute in other ways, but a pension has never been on my radar. Fortunately I’ve saved in other ways- paid off my house etc.

I hadn’t actually realised how much university and a phd has screwed up my pension. I didn’t enter the workplace until i was 27, and academic pay and pensions are pitiful. So many of my school mates who started work at 18/21 and scraped into final salary pension schemes are 30 years in and able to retire comfortably.

Pensions are no longer enough to support two adults unless you’re a high earner.

Maybe fewer people believe in feminism and more people believe in genuine equality? A lot of feminist policies of the past are now Revealing unintended negative impacts for women while equality remains unattainable. Certainly as a young woman (mid twenties) I don’t think that past generations of feminism have done as much good for me as they seem to think they have. They’ve replaced one set of problems without achieving any genuine equality (or anything near it) so why would I support it. I believe in a more rounded approach to gender equality is the way forward. Let’s face it, the sexes will never be equal while women bare sole responsibility for cover across and abortion or men face stigma for being a SAHP. You can focus on women all you like but unless men are also equal there is no equality. If you think I’m not a feminist as a result then that’s fine.

MarshaBradyo
I agree with you, but I also think it is important to be able to discuss MRA behaviour and attitudes, which includes trying to shut down debate from women and women fighting for women's rights.

There's always some posters who popup saying they "don't understand why MN I'd sexist / why MN hates men" and then sealions by claiming they're "only asking questions and look at the mean women".

Or if women are discussing male pattern violence will start saying "yeah but whatabout men? ... Women can be donestically violent too"

It's like whatever happens to a woman is worse if it happens to a man.

I agree. Some of the threads in relationships make me squirm. The porn apologists are always there telling unhappy OP's that its totally normal for men to prefer wanking off to a screen than have a sexual relationship with their wife and good luck finding a man who doesn't use porn on a daily basis.

I don’t think they do though

That’s another assumption. That’s kind of my point.

I appreciate you think women don’t because of your experience but other women make different choices.

There is a difference between what feminism used to be and what 'feminism' has been distorted to in current times...

I think fundamentally feminism is about equality and choice.
I think changing your name when you marry or becoming a SAHM can be a feminist choice. Just like wearing makeup or not wearing makeup can both be feminist choices. Just like choosing a career in nursing Or as a physicist can both be feminist choices. Choosing to shave body hair or not, both can be feminist. And so on.

I disagree emphatically that a feminist choice is automatically choosing the opposite of what past generations of women were forced into. Feminism is not that simple. If it were, we would not have fifty years and millions of pages of thought written on feminism and being a feminist. It would be one sentence: “Do and think the opposite of everything your great grandmother did, and voila you are a feminist”

Whether a choice is feminist or not depends upon the woman and whether she is making that choice with eyes open and has no more or less freedom and opportunity in making that choice as a man in her same situation would presented with the same choice. It’s not what is chosen, but instead why and the circumstances behind what is chosen.

I am a newbie on MN.

I think it is difficult to strike a fine balance of topics within the Feminist chat threads. At the moment it is dominated by trans issues because it is something that truly is sneaking under most people’s radars.

Certainly many of my friends radars. They pick up on the occasional story about women in sport, but not about the full story on what is happening.

And now a group of my friends IRL have young teen girls and boys who are all questioning, fighting to remain individual in a society becoming more narrowly stereotyped, depressed because they cannot fit in so are thinking they are ‘not right’ or ‘not enough’. I have had about 25% of my daughters friends mothers talk to me this year about gender dyphoria (ok that is just 3 people but still ). So this is happening and it does need to be talked about freely. Like periods and menopause and all those female things no one once voiced because of embarrassment. People are not talking about the ‘trans issue’ enough now outside of MN.

Why?

Because discussion elsewhere has been shut down and debate has been deemed as phobic!! The very idea that Acts of Parliament could be changed without robust discussion and a greater awareness of just what those changes mean is very scary indeed. But that is what is happening because there has been a vacuum of debate and a whole lot of cheerleading elsewhere.

So yes, I do get that the threads seem repetitive and it might seem that they are aggressive ‘echo chamber’. But I also note that many times posters come on with little actual empathy for other women and WHY they may be willing to go against the very public movement of ‘inclusion’. However, it actually is a great resource tool where there is little thought provoking information available on the negative effects of these changes to provide any semblance of balance.

The evidence that a glimmer of change in attitude that people can come out and say that whole scale (and legal) change may have a detrimental effect on the future of women is a very positive effect of this current focus.

Yep - there’s a bill in Ohio saying that an embryo removed in surgery for an ectopic pregnancy has to be reimplanted. Our reproductive rights are under attack.

Sorry I am naive but this - [ shock]

Forget who uses the loo -this is something I had not realised.

Thank you for pointing it out

Why is it almost always resolved in favour of the man's career and not the woman's?

Why is the career (historical mans occupation) considered the more desirable option? Why is looking after children (historical female occupation) considered the less feminist options.

just kneejerk back to "it made sense for our family".
Is it kneejerk or is it what women say instead i really wanted more time with my kids? Why aren't men often taking the paternity leave that is already written into law. Why are men not fitting tooth and nail for more paternity leave? (Is it because taking parental leave as a male or female impacts on your earning potential?)

but what happens when he runs off with another woman and you have no income and pension.

Why should women be forced to go out to work to accommodate male frailty? Why is only the male paying into a pension regardless of who earns the income?

Why don't you examine a bit more and push back a bit more?

Why are caring roles undervalued and underprotected? Why does feminism still assume a traditionally male way of living is better.

They are not about trans issues it's the erasure of women that's the issue the fact that people call them "trans issues" shows the problem

without achieving any genuine equality

Velveteen, interesting. I don’t think equality is possible and I think its pursuit often leads to a loss of freedom. But what does ‘genuine equality ‘ look like in your opinion?

Why does feminism still assume a traditionally male way of living is better.

This is my thought too. 👍🏻

There is a difference between what feminism used to be and what 'feminism' has been distorted to in current times...
Actually I think this ^^ is a very good point. Although there have always been different schools and waves of feminism, they did tend to have an appreciation of the historic impact of the movement and the context of structural oppression. Now, there are women (saying with a straight face!) that feminism didn't give them anything. They don't know what they have so are happily giving it away.
It's very depressing that women's rights are more under attack than they have ever been and yet there's a generation who can't see it as they happily facilitate it. I was talking with some friends about this. We're all appalled that the battles we thought were won are being gleefully dismantled. Friends with DDs can't believe they're DDs have less rights than they had 30 years ago.

I thought that was a brilliant post, thepeopleversuswork and can I just thank you for introducing me to the wonderful word inculcated. I shall attempt to use that in a conversation this week.

their DDs

I have noticed an awful lot of NAMALTing.

An (apparently) female poster was squarely blaming women for male suicide on a thread (started by an albeit ingenuous poster) on a thread accusing MNers of being "sexist against men".

Porn is an excellent example. I think it’s only quite recently that we’ve had women arguing that porn and prostitution are empowering and positive for women?

I started as a lurker on Mumsnet in about 2009 and there has always been a mixture of pro and anti-porn views as far as I can remember.

I don't remember there being many people arguing that sex work is empowering, but I'm a bit doubtful that there are many MNers who would argue that now either.

I also think there's an issues that MNers who spend a lot of the time arguing against posters with opposing views often end up with a skewed perception of the balance of opinion on Mumsnet, because they spend more time interacting with people they disagree with than those the agree with, and thus they underestimate how many there are of the latter. If you were to go back and read through a typical porn thread, I suspect you would find more antis than pros.

Yes I agree many do not appreciate the gains feminism has made for women’s rights.

But It's very depressing that women's rights are more under attack than they have ever been ? Is this true that’s me in spotlight? Which rights are under attack more than ever? And what rights did I have that my daughters do not?

I’d be interested in reading whatever you did that informed you of this.

A feminist is someone who puts women front and centre and considers the impact what she says or does has on other women

this is not feminism. It is childish and unrealistic.

Feminism is about wanting equality and freedom to do as we please (with the same legal restraints as men).

Equality under law hasn't been achieved yet and this is an example of something to fight about: there’s a bill in Ohio saying that an embryo removed in surgery for an ectopic pregnancy has to be reimplanted - what is happening in the US is worse than here - but fundamentally what we need is equality under law (and yes the law is sophisticated enough to deal with hidden inequalities) and to change society by bringing up our children differently - which would, I am afraid, involve women NOT putting women front and centre.

Why are caring roles undervalued and underprotected? Why does feminism still assume a traditionally male way of living is better.

I really hope the next wave of feminism focuses on this. I am really grateful that women are pushing for more CEOs (for example) but I never wanted to be a CEO (and not just because of internal misogyny) Every society always needs people to do caring work. Societies can't function without people doing that work. I really long for a shift in values