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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

857 replies

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 11:33

..is a bad thing?

OP posts:
Blakes77 · 03/12/2019 11:20

Ach sorry dylsexia Grin Bertrand of course.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 11:40

“ Bernard you do realise women are called names a lot don't you? Not just feminist ones!”

Yes of course I do. But the people who are saying they won’t post on FWR because a feminist was disobliging once don’t seem to!

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 11:46

It’s more what Olliphaunt says.

The outcome is entrenched views battling against these trolls as people have identified. It has a different flavour to the site. Which again fine, if that’s what is preferred.

Olliephaunt4eyes · 03/12/2019 12:13

I'd add as well that I'm not coming over to FWR to complain that they are all horrible. It's their space and they are totally entitled to communicate in whatever is the norm there. But it isn't how I work really and there are other spaces on the internet I use for discussing feminism that have more people interested in the same issues as me and are a better fit for how I communicate.

MN is great for other stuff, but not where I'd go for feminism. And that's ok as far as I'm concerned. I'm only commenting here because OP asked a question and I'm answering.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 12:17

“ suppose my counter would be "but what possible purpose is there in my going through some weird hazing ritual on Mumsnet FWR where they call me a handmaiden and tell me I'm stupid and a secret man and question my sexuality?”
Of course there would be no purpose in that. Are you saying that’s what happens?

OP posts:
Blakes77 · 03/12/2019 12:24

I do come here for feminism, as it's a good resource for info and links, plus FWR are really on it when it comes to flagging stuff up. I wouldn't have known ANYTHING about the massive increase in girls transing, and that to me was a lightbulb moment. But I was thinking of starting a thread in there (not trans related) the other day and decided I would probably say something un-approved and get piled on so I didn't! And when I say piled on I don't mean "waah they're not nice" I mean the sort of tag-team, backing each other up no matter what, cliquey behaviour. I think some people on there need to take a break is all.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 12:29

“ But I was thinking of starting a thread in there (not trans related) the other day and decided I would probably say something un-approved and get piled on so I didn't! ”

What was it about?

OP posts:
Blakes77 · 03/12/2019 12:35

I gotta go to work now so I won't be back anytime soon, but I wanted to start a thread about being feminist when young, and the different focus you have under, say, 30, and what changes as you get older. Just a chat thread really bcos I was thinking about my own attitudes as a young woman (and cringing haha)

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 12:37

I honestly cannot understand why you think that would be anything but interesting and thought provoking. Is it because you think it would be hijacked (rather like this one!) by trans issues?

OP posts:
Blakes77 · 03/12/2019 12:44

Yeah maybe, or I would say something not pre-approved.
Rather like lola said-any woman saying she likes certain sexual practices for example would be told she doesn't really and is being opressed etc. (My thread wasn't about sex just to clarify).
Doesn't matter it was just an idle thought on a day off!
Really better run I'm late!

cosima1 · 03/12/2019 12:44

I’m just returning to this and wanted to make an observation. This is a thread questioning whether MN is becoming less feminist. You can see, as the thread had developed, that the variety of posters has dwindled. People have brought up a range of feminist topics yet, inevitably, the discourse returns to the trans debate between posters who are probably regulars on FWR with all the usual terminology of TERF, MRA etc. Please don’t get me wrong - I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with people having this discussion. I’m just pointing out that it can be quite stale and alienating for a lot of women. Words such as “handmaiden” are as distinctive (and irritating) to MN as “huns” is to Netmums - perhaps more so because posters on MN take themselves a lot more seriously on the whole. Anyway, what I’m saying is, I don’t think women are necessarily becoming “less feminist” on here, but maybe they’re just pushing back against the “ MN feminism stereotype” and all associated jargon because this has grown tired. They want a more varied and less rigid debate about whatever engages them and is relevant to their real lives day to day. It’s almost a backlash if you like. For instance, on any SAHM thread, that’s will inevitably be some quip about the “1950s”; “role modelling” for children;” independence;” “WOHZm v SAHM;” and you know the rest and I think people get bored if the same old predictable reactions and circular arguments, time and time again because they know life in 2019 is more nuanced than that. This is why people get frustrated, maybe?

birdsdestiny · 03/12/2019 12:45

Blakes I have talked quite a lot about my views as a young woman and no one has ever pounced on me. I cringe when I think about my views and behaviour. I think it would be a really interesting discussion.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 12:50

“ Yeah maybe, or I would say something not pre-approved.”

Do I not see this because I hold all the “pre-approved” opinions?

OP posts:
birdsdestiny · 03/12/2019 12:53

I think sometimes it's not nuanced though, the PA thread is a case in point. Any woman who has been assaulted would be devastated by reading some of the comments on that thread.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 12:54

What are sone of the pre approved opinions?

OP posts:
peachgreen · 03/12/2019 13:05

I would say that the preapproved opinions (many of which I hold myself, some which I don't) include things like:
Porn is bad
"Rough" sex is bad and women don't really enjoy it, they've just been socialised to believe they do
Self-id poses a serious risk to natal women
Children are being "transed"
Gender dysphoria should be treated psychologically rather than medically (hormone blockers etc)
Transwomen are men and transmen are women
Women should be financially independent
Cis is a slur
The gender pay gap is an example of misogyny in action
Feminists can't be pro sex-work

There's more but those are off the top of my head.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 13:07

I agree with most if not all of those I still have been told I haven’t a different position though.

Blake I like the sound of that thread.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 13:08

Have a different position

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 13:12

Hmm.
So “pre approved” opinions are radical feminist ones? I don’t think I could pretend to be pro sex work, for example, for the sake of making other people more comfortable....

OP posts:
Original poster
BertrandRussell · 03/12/2019 13:16

MarshaBradyo - can you give an example or even a link, please?

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 13:26

The two threads I’m thinking about are a marathon training one. Something silly about a bath being run maybe. MRA said, really irritating.
Second we were talking about Adriene yoga and boycotting due to the word ladies. Fine different opinion but I do recall saying try not to be sarcastic and let’s debate.

Going by that list I have radical feminist beliefs. I’m not surprised I studied it way back when. Probably why I take great umbrage at being an apologist, MRA etc. And feel cross at the thought. When people say hairy feminist or whatever at least it’s the right ‘side’. It’s not just the name it’s that it’s wholly inaccurate.

In the scheme of things it’s not much but if you are the recipient of lots saying handmaiden, etc you may well stay away when you actually have a feminist position.

Too long: sometimes people really don’t want to be told they are something they are not.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 13:26

Being called

MrsMaiselsMuff · 03/12/2019 13:35

Are people boycotting Adriene because she uses the word ladies?

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2019 13:36

No she stopped ; on one video

Dangerfloof · 03/12/2019 13:41

And if you want FWR to maintain its close knit character, and where a small group of women who are mostly already in agreement with you gather to support each other on GC issues, it doesn't really matter if wider MN stays away (and is maybe a good thing) but it seems a bit odd to do that and then complain that more people aren't engaging

But more people are looking if not actually engaging. The stats are somewhere re how many people come to mumsnet via fwr. I actually think more people are engaging as I see new names that stick around, but then I'm not often on aibu so maybe it's the same there.
All these meeting places (online or irl) change and move over time. It's always been that way. Eventually most meet ups, clubs, societies die a death as not enough people care about whatever brought them together. I suspect fwr will carry on for some time yet, if not here then somewhere.