AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

I don't think the GRA stuff should only be on feminist threads. It should be anywhere or perhaps a specific GRA section because not only feminists have views on GRA. Also putting all trans and GRA under the feminist heading can give feminists a bad name ie that ONLY feminists have an issue with some of this stuff.

It’s interesting on a thread about what is off putting about FWR that talking about language used means I’m telling women to play nice and think about men.

I rarely if ever think about men when posting on mn. But I do want to talk to women without being told I am.

The language is important.

I think MRA can get dished out too easily, but think it's important to have.

For me it's the difference between someone caring about issues that genuinely affect men (eg raising issues about male mental health and suicide, toxic masculinity, challenging the boys will be boys narrative etc) and someone who feels the need to act like men are the biggest victims in the world, whatever happens to women happens to men but worse, men nasty women, feminists hate men, you women should be nice to poor men, men should have a veto over abortion because it's his baby too etc.

Similar to the difference between someone campaigning quite genuinely about issues affecting trans people (eg gender dysphoria, access to talking therapies, ways to navigate spaces where a third space would be appropriate, how to balance competing rights, sexual assaults on trans women in sex work, violence in relationships affecting trans people etc. All very valid areas to focus on), Vs aggressive TRAs who want to shut women up, whatever oppression you face as women we have it worse, we want access to your sex segregated spaces, rewrite language, put up or shut up or we'll threaten you.

It's really important to be able to make a distinction between these different positions.

I dislike handmaiden, but find it awful just how many women aren't just oblivious to the patriarchy, but are there reinforcing it by telling other women to roll over, be nice, don't discuss things beyond nappies and cooking because we should realise how lucky we are to exist in a world of poor men.

Lola I really agree that I don’t want to be just talking about nappies. And Mumsnet still gets scoffed at (the name doesn’t help). But I’ve been on a few topics where change has happened started in part by discussion on here. Which is great.

It's a balancing act between accepting some of the perhaps overzealous shutting down / dominant voices without getting the male apologists on.

I think someone was right about a shift happening in places due to defections to MN from other sites where hubabubs needs to feel loved and looked after aftera long day 9-5.

LolaSmiles

IMO, complaining about being called TERFs etc. whist using MRA, TRA, handmaiden, apologist etc. (especially to shutdown discussion) doesn't win the moral high ground.

I see your point in some respects.
For me MRA/TRA is comparable to gender critical feminist. They are statements of a position.
TERF is usually used to totally misrepresent concerns about women's rights as part of the new rewriting of language.
Handmaiden I don't like.
Sometimes I think handmaiden is the feminist version of "cool wife" in that both get used to mean "women who have a different opinion to me" or "I know a woman's mind more than she does", and I don't like that.

Apologist is more tricky, because there's a worrying number of women who do make excuses and excuse male pattern behaviour and I'm not sure yet how we can talk about that in alternative terms. There needs to be a way if articulating the way some women excuse male behaviour and dish out free passes whilst telling fellow women to be nice and roll over.

The trouble is people use them as insults not as statements of position. I know my own position and it’s infuriating when someone uses apologist / MRA / you’re saying to women roll over and play nice when you’re not.

Absolutely agree if they're being misused Marsha.

It's like when a woman expresses that she has sexual preferences outside of the middle ground, she's clearly made an informed decision to consent in her sexual relations but someone turns up and calls her a "cool wife" or handmaiden because she clearly only likes it because of the porn she doesn't watch or she only agrees to appease men and her enjoying her sexual preferences is selling women out.

In reality there's an interesting debate to be had about increasingly violent approaches to sex, porn etc, but that can be done without diminishing a woman who has clearly articulated their view just because it's something other than "approved sex".

@BertrandRussell my definition of feminism is slightly different.. I believe it is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of equality, not putting women "front and centre"!

LolaSmiles

I agree with MarshaBradyo too many times they have been used to shutdown debate.

I find this notion of shutting down debate a bit specious. Seldom have I seen a comment on FWR actually stop people from responding.

SenecaFalls

Seldom have I seen a comment on FWR actually stop people from responding.

So you have seen it?

Sometimes people get bored. Usually the ones arguing the feminist positions.

Yip, I am more about equality ( of opportunity ) myself.

However I recognise that it's actually quite difficult to achieve that if you don't consciously put women front and centre as it's really difficult to spot when your conditioning and unconscious bias kicks in an leads to you actually being biased towards men

So we only need single sex spaces if we centre women. If it's just about equality, as long as we allow everyone in, that's equal. However if we look at things from a female viewpoint, we spot that there are times when allowing everyone in is not sufficient because women may self exclude from fear or mental discomfort ?

“ Seldom have I seen a comment on FWR actually stop people from responding.

So you have seen it?”

Well, I have seen the shutting down of obvious trolls, and I suppose if you haven’t been on the board for long you might not recognise the troll for what it is?

Yes Midge exactly what you said^^ re equality and why it's tricky when you start from where we are.That's perfectly described my position too.
Posters definitely get shut down-or shouted down-on FWR. I have been called a handmaiden (!) and it been suggested that I am an MRA too! (Under a different name)
There's quite a lot of "oh you are not agreeing 100% with everything so you are an infiltrator wanting to throw women under the bus! "
It can be a little paranoid, but I guess I can understand why, given the way feminists have been shut down on social media (Megan Murphy etc). It doesn't bother me personally but I can see how the gang mentality can put some posters off posting at all.

There are a growing number of disingenuous posts on FWR.

A common theme now (usually of a weekend) is for a new poster to start an 'open minded' thread along the lines of 'I don't understand why....'

A few pages in and the mask slips. Women have already imparted advice/opinions only to find a reply (last week) of 'all hail the penis' (I kid you not) or 'you are old and bitter women' etc.

Often, the threads are started just to gain screenshots for Twitter of all the 'mean' and 'phobic' women.

This leaves many of us cautious as regular, longstanding posters have been banned.

Recently, on a main board, a child posed as an adult (a parent) who was asking for advice about their transgender child. Some posters expressed concern over some of the OP's comments. Those regulars were deleted/banned.

The thread was put on hold. The OP then put up a second thread and announced that they were in fact the child in the original story, posing as a parent.

I expressed concern, that MN had a duty of care to a young teen posting about adult issues, but the second thread kept going.

This is why we are often wary.

“ Posters definitely get shut down-or shouted down-on FWR. ”
Do you mean on FWR generally, or on threads about trans issues?

I think the minute you call someone a handmaiden or MRA you're shutting down conversation. Few people are going to respond to being called names by saying "let me engage further with these strangers on the internet and prove that they don't have to call me names". Most people will say "well, screw you then" and head off.

And if you want FWR to maintain its close knit character, and where a small group of women who are mostly already in agreement with you gather to support each other on GC issues, it doesn't really matter if wider MN stays away (and is maybe a good thing) but it seems a bit odd to do that and then complain that more people aren't engaging.

I only use MRA when I am as sure as I can be that the person concerned is one!
I hesitate to say this because it sounds self serving. But you do realise that feminists are called names a lot, don’t you? I’m not using that as a justification for my own behaviour, partly because I don’t think I do insult people very much. But I don’t think I would be taken very seriously if I took my bat home every tine I was called a man hating fun sponge!

That's an odd phrasing. I suppose my counter would be "but what possible purpose is there in my going through some weird hazing ritual on Mumsnet FWR where they call me a handmaiden and tell me I'm stupid and a secret man and question my sexuality? Why would I put the time and emotional effort in just...so I can talk to a limited number of women about trans issues?"

I don't think anyone is morally obliged to get into arguments on the internet, particularly in a forum which is meant to be a support forum for women talking to other women.

Bernard you do realise women are called names a lot don't you? Not just feminist ones!

Is Bernard posting here? I didn't think she was... or is she a page or two back?

Blakes do you mean Bertrand? I'm

Terf was banned because it became a slur and was used to describe people who weren't trans-exclusionary radical feminists (who do exist, and have previously or still do describe themselves as terfs). I'd argue TRA and MRA have been misappropriated in the same way. I've been called both on the FWR boards in the past and in fact I'm neither. Of course they exist, but not everyone who supports trans rights is a TRA, just like not everyone who has concerns about the GRA is a terf. Imo either both or neither should be banned.