Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

857 replies

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 11:33

..is a bad thing?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/12/2019 13:06

I thinks that quite often saying what you think is interpreted as telling other women what to think.

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 02/12/2019 13:21

Yes, again, it's often the expectation that we should preface our comments with "I think" or better yet, "I may be wrong, but I think. . ."

Challenging someone's opinions does not mean that you are telling them what to think.

mauvaisereputation · 02/12/2019 13:22

I think these days most discussions of feminism on MN are actually discussions of trans issues, unfortunately. I've found that any discussion of trans issues gets very angry and unproductive very quickly. IMO it's a complex topic with room for a range of reasonable opinions but discussions on here simply don't reflect that and I avoid them altogether because the level of civility to anyone who doesn't agree with the majority view is very low.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2019 13:49

Yes- there are conversational tics that lots of women use-the verbal version of taking up as little space as possible. “I was wondering..””I’m probably wrong but...” “I just wanted to say....”

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2019 13:59

Whilst I agree on the conversational segues that are largely employed by women there is a way a thread goes that is beyond even just directness or argument.

Ok let’s say there’s a degree on upwards scale
Nicey nice - no need of you don’t want to
Direct and reasonable - fine probably can’t be maintained all the time
Argumentative - can happen
Then stuff like oh here come the handmaidens, oh are you an MRA etc - only had fortune of latter but boy was it annoying

I have however re-thought due to this thread that I was just unfortunate with one poster. I’ll probably dip in and out as I used to anyway.

cosima1 · 02/12/2019 14:09

I used to go on FWR a few years ago. It was quite cliquey tbh, but I guess that’s to be expected so that was ok. It used to be genuinely interesting, although some posters did present with something of an intellectual superiority complex.

I haven’t been on it for years because I’m not particularly motivated or interested in the trans debate. You just look at the threads on FWR and wonder why the topics have become so narrow. I once went on an FWR thread (naively)! and expressed that I don’t think there will be a sudden rush of men identifying as women just to get into changing rooms. If a man wants to attack a woman, there’s easier ways of doing it, surely. I said many changing rooms and bathrooms are communal as it is. It’s not as if I feel the need to walk around naked anyway, even in a female only space. I said I didn’t really have an agenda about trans people and would just prefer to take them as they come, on an individual basis.
I was told that it was “women like you” who were destroying women’s rights and eroding biological rights and if this was not the most pressing issue in my life right now I must be dense. Someone very aggressive on there told me I deserved to get stared at by a creep masquerading as a woman next time I visited the gym - then I might wake up and understand the seriousness of the issue.. I replied that anyone could stare at anyone. Nobody ever really worries that they might be stared at by a gay woman in a changing room, do they? Well that was it! I was deemed a homophobe, MRA troll with an agenda that all gay people are sex offenders. All I was saying was, that you can’t make assumptions about anyone, so why presume trans people are a greater public risk than anyone else in the community. A few posters seemed genuinely unhinged on that thread, they really did, After that, I just stuck to AIBU and the Education boards because I can’t contend with all that.

HandsOffMyRights · 02/12/2019 14:57

My experience of FWR has been very different.

It's not just a one topic forum (although this is the only place where women can talk about the issue of self ID to some degree, without being threatened or doxxed, as I have found on Twitter) and my knowledge is all the richer for it.

The regulars were welcoming towards me when I finally ventured over, even though it was clear I was a 'novice' in terms of some of the topics.

HandsOffMyRights · 02/12/2019 15:05

Let me give you an example, there's a current thread on FWR: 'Feminist books for DD'

I wouldn't have a clue where to start, but hoping by the end of it there will be a couple of recommendations that I can also buy for my niece.

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/12/2019 17:15

Someone who says I have no qualms telling another woman what to think is doing just that. No one is interpreting anything.

Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 18:52

Telling women what to think is MN FWR Feminism, not real feminism.

I'd rather have a discussion than an argument. Unfortunately many (not all) of the posters on FWR aren't interested in discussing issues with anyone who hold a different view to them.

Yep, this is my view too.

In terms of prostitution I first became really anti about 25 years ago, because in most cases I couldn't see how it wasn't sexual abuse.

Porn I know nothing about tbh and would prefer to leave it that way.

Blakes77 · 02/12/2019 18:52

Yeah, that was me Dione
To clarify, when I say "argument" I am talking in the sense of making an argument (for/against) not in the sense of having a barney!
Also, by saying I have no qualms etc I was being a bit lairy. I just get fed up with women always having to apologise for an opinion, or "see both sides" or, as seneca mentions say "I think.." all the time.
OBVIOUSLY I can tell someone they are wrong about something (and why) but I can't MAKE them agree. That's why discussion and free speech is important, rather than being told what you can and can't talk about, or just trying to be nice, or saying feminists aren't always nice to other women.
It's damn hard to ever change anything if you are constantly tiptoeing round people's feelings.

Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 18:54

Yes- there are conversational tics that lots of women use-the verbal version of taking up as little space as possible. “I was wondering..””I’m probably wrong but...” “I just wanted to say....”

Are these just used by women? I think they are used by men too actually. Where I work the key to success is actually asking questions that could be seen as daft a lot of the time. Interested re the evidence base for this.

Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 18:56

see both sides

I really struggle with rigid, dogmatic people both male and female. Seeing both sides is healthy, often there is more than one right answer.

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2019 18:58

It’s not about tip toeing around people.

Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 19:04

But men do that as well. I don't but that's to my detriment. Our director gets rid of people both male and female who don't sing the right song. We all base stuff on who we know, our own experience but personally I can't relate to what you are talking about. Perhaps people like that don't like me so keep a wide berth, I have no idea.

I only learnt on MN that there is a stereotype that black women are aggressive. Never heard it in RL or heard anything so utterly ridiculous tbh.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2019 19:09

“ I really struggle with rigid, dogmatic people both male and female. Seeing both sides is healthy, often there is more than one right answer.”

Often there is, of course. But often there isn’t. And when you say rigid, dogmatic...what if you know, following reading, research and listening that you are right about something? Do you still have to preface it with qualifiers?

OP posts:
Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 19:13

In a work scenario for me there would never be one single right answer. If I know I'm right I'll stick to my guns, interestingly some of the most dogmatic people I work with who won't listen are actually women not men.

In other stuff you assess its importance don't you? There's little point in going through life in a perpetual argument whether you are male or female.

Where is the evidence that females are always the ones that back down? I can't relate to this,

Dangerfloof · 02/12/2019 19:14

but what can we do?" - raise awareness of it and its consequences in the general public, start new threads about it on mumsnet (instead of threads like this), write articles, write to MPs with a view to lobbying for change
I do all those except starting new threads, just because I dont post about my efforts doesn't mean I make no effort. As you can imagine the other stuff and real life take up quite some time. Also I dont require brownie points for the meagre attempts I make. You know this is just a website? Not the actual parliament, where laws get made. There is only so much we can do. I suspect that even if every woman in this country rose up and protested something we would all just be patted on the head and told the mens will sort it love.

Teateaandmoretea · 02/12/2019 19:15

I suspect that even if every woman in this country rose up and protested something we would all just be patted on the head and told the mens will sort it love.

Confused

Yep more FWR conjecture

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2019 19:17

Mens or menz that should be in the bin with handmaiden and MRA as insult

LolaSmiles · 02/12/2019 19:23

Mens or menz that should be in the bin with handmaiden and MRA as insult

Menz is more about conveying tone and sarcasm, usually when some dear soul turns up to say "but what about men..."

Handmaiden as an insult I don't like.

MRA is a factual description: men's rights activist. Again usually someone who comes alone to tell everyone that whatever happens to women happens to men, but if it happens to men it's much, much, worse.

It's interesting that your objecting to women using terms to describe attitudes and behaviour that is typically displayed as a way of telling women to be quiet, play nice, think of the men.

Blakes77 · 02/12/2019 19:25

I'm with you there Marsha

I'm not talking about being dogmatic or rigid. When I say we are always supposed to see both sides I'm talking about when you bring something up, (like violence against women for egs) and someone will say "women can be violent too" or "men need refuges too" or some other platitude.
Sometimes you have ro be forthright and say what you think is right and why (again, what I meant by argument)
I am by no means an academic (or even someone with a proffessional job) but surely "argument" isn't just used to mean shouting?Confused

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2019 19:26


In other stuff you assess its importance don't you? There's little point in going through life in a perpetual argument whether you are male or female.”
Of course not. But I thought we were talking about on the FWR board? Obviously you decide which hills to die on!

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2019 19:26

I disagree menz makes me cringe as it sounds juvenile and doesn’t paint women in a good light.

MRA well I’m not one by any stretch of the imagination and someone said it to me. So I reckon it’s overly used.

And your last line is annoying because you are assuming.

At least we agree on handmaiden.

MarshaBradyo · 02/12/2019 19:27

That was to Lola

Language is important to us isn’t it.

I was coming from that place rather than be nice think of the men.

Swipe left for the next trending thread