AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

Thats the opposite of how many take such questioning of my own feminism and lingering misogyny.

I'll defend myself, ponder, rethink, reframe and possibly choose to modify how I think some things. FWR is useful for that. You can always test out a new or old understanding. As long as you don't remain firmly attached to being right it can be really informative.

On the occasions I have remained wed to some faulty logic I have either held my hands up or name changed

I think the name thing is particularly troublesome because of all the women who justify changing their names on marriage or having their children have the father's names for reasons that never affect a man's choice in the matter. I don't criticize any woman for either choice (I am married, kept my own name, children have DH's name), but I do think that an awareness that some choices are, in fact, anti-feminist is a necessary aspect of being a feminist. The cumulative effects of all of these micro choices do affect women as a whole.

“ It wasn't even the topic under discussion so why pounce so eagerly to tell me how wrong and unfeminist I am?“ Did everyone on the thread do this? Or was it just one or two araeholes? Because feminists can be arseholes too! Some all of the time, some occasionally.....

Because one thing I’ve noticed over the years is how a woman is seen as a representative of all women if they do something crap while a man represents nobody but himself. So “Feminists are [insert crap thing]” rather than “A feminist once said/did this crap thing to me”

Because one thing I’ve noticed over the years is how a woman is seen as a representative of all women if they do something crap while a man represents nobody but himself.

Wasn’t that the point of your thread though? You could easily say one or two women are posting things that aren’t in line with feminism on Mumsnet. And from this you’ve decided that MN as a whole is becoming increasingly less feminist...

Slomi, that's why many hide or ignore FWR.

Slomi, that's why many hide or ignore FWR.

I'm pretty sure that the thread she was referring to was not in FWR. Better hide AIBU instead.

I’ve been on many discussions about name changing and have explained the reasons behind taking my DH’s name after 21years of marriage. Not once was I pounded on, slated, abused or told I wasn’t a feminist. I did have women give their views as to why they kept their own name, how important it was them and why they feel it’s important to females, generally. At no point did I feel attacked.

There must be an awful lot of very sensitive posters out there if they think they’re not tough enough to join in or argue against feminist viewpoints.

I love the FWR discussions because there are so many well read, intelligent and strong posters on there. I used to feel and still quite often still do, out of my depth, but that’s why I stay. I want to understand and learn. If I feel that I have something to add or something I would like clarification on, then I join in.

The arseholes dont just stay in FWR though. They seem to enjoy putting other women off feminism. Strange really, all the feminists I know IRL manage to promote feminism and not castigate or pile on to other women. I guess that's because they are intelligent and feminism is important to them.

I find the ‘feminists’ on here who post frequently absolutely terrifying so tend to not speak up now. I’m also not transphobic and believe that many of the threads in feminism are and that toxicity also puts me off.
And I know some posters will be along in a second to tell me I’m wrong and tell me to report transphobia and it’s not transphobic any way and blah blah blah.

But I know what I see and read.

One of the mysteries of life, that I shall die failing to understand, is why not ALL women are feminists in perspective.
I have more understanding of a Tory mind than this ...🤨

I find the ‘feminists’ on here who post frequently absolutely terrifying so tend to not speak up now. I’m also not transphobic and believe that many of the threads in feminism are and that toxicity also puts me off.

'Absolutely terrifying'?

Really?!

“(I am married, kept my own name, children have DH's name), but I do think that an awareness that some choices are, in fact, anti-feminist is a necessary aspect of being a feminist. The cumulative effects of all of these micro choices do affect women as a whole.”

Here we go again - this is exactly what I’m talking about.

The situation in 2019 in the UK is that there is no expectation on women to change their name any more. Yes the history of name changing had sexist connotations. We all know this. But times have changed. We still celebrate Christmas don’t we? Should we reject this tradition on the feminist grounds that the whole notion of the Virgin birth has been the root cause of misogyny through the ages? No, because these days we’re long past that and we know can celebrate Christmas in whatever context we want. It can be deeply religious, traditional, or just a time to give gifts.

The default now is probably for women to keep their own name, just as much as they might name-change. Years ago, not name/changing would have been a feminist statement for sure, but we’ve now moved beyond that context. So what now? Should we create a new restrictive context where women feel pressured to not change their name? Ir should we just be happy that we have choice and focus on the millions of more important issues?

I would argue that ending up with a different name to your children is no more feminist than the alternative, but I know that view is unacceptable to the self-proclaimed feminist non-name changers on here and they will never change their minds, Fair enough, if this kind of thing is important to you, but all I would ask is that you can conceive that some people have gone beyond this mindset.

@Slomi- I need to apologise to you about that thread. I was pissed off at the string of attacks on “irresponsible” unmarried parents and their children- or “bastards” as a couple of posters decided to put it and I took it out on you. That was very wrong of me. I still think I am right about name changing, but I was an arsehole and I’m sorry.

I can't honestly remember where the thread was as it was quite some time ago. I wouldn't say I'm oversensitive at all and it certainly didn't upset me, I was more bemused that my contribution to a thread was completely derailed and picked apart. I'm just explaining that the reason I don't partake in feminist discussions on here is because I find that sort of thing tiresome and confrontational and it takes away any enjoyment I would have in taking part in a discussion like that. Of course I'm not saying all posters who count themselves feminists are like that (I consider myself a feminist although I'm sure many would disagree, ie. my mortal sin re naming my DD) but enough to put me off participating in topics about feminism which I would otherwise be very interested in.

@BertrandRussell I did not realise that you were on that thread, I cannot honestly remember posters names. I appreciate that thank you. For what it's worth on paper I 100% agree about giving children your own name but in my personal circumstances I couldn't bring myself to do so for many reasons which I am sensitive about and perhaps that is why its hard for me to swallow that that one decision means I should be condemned as anti-feminist .
Anyway, I'm derailing your thread now. Perhaps I'll dip my toe back in FWR when I'm feeling braver

The situation in 2019 in the UK is that there is no expectation on women to change their name any more.

If that is indeed true, then it would bolster one aspect of the point that I was trying to make in my post: that individual choices do accumulate to change societal attitudes. As a feminist, I analyze my choices accordingly, although I am the first to admit that I don't always make choices accordingly.

Seneca - but of course individual choices accumulate to change social attitudes. This goes without saying.

All I’m saying is, in an area where women have achieved choice, it’s not helpful to replace one guilt-complex or “you should do this” (ie take your DH’s name for fear of offending him) with another guilt-complex or “you should do this” ie don’t change you name for fear of offending other women and the feminist cause.

Surely these days we should just do what we want - not NC, NC, not NC for professional purposes only, double-barrel, have a whole new name - whatever! Without judgement from men or women and be done with it. Because now we can. Also remember people bring different cultural perspectives to bear. Where I come from the norm is to double-barrel anyway. Where DH’s family come from women have to keep their “father’s” name (and yes, it is seen as his name) for life and some see this as a misogynistic denial of ever being able to have the same name and therefore equal legal / psychological ownership of their own children. They would see the right to NC as more feminist than the alternative. Whatever anyone thinks, the situation is far from simple so just do what you want within the context of YOUR relationship.

Absolutely terrifying'?

Really?!

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind

It’s literal violence, innit?! 😁

This is just an aside:
Should we reject this tradition on the feminist grounds that the whole notion of the Virgin birth has been the root cause of misogyny through the ages?
TBH I think misogyny goes back waaaaay before the Virgin birth business.

(And besides, I am reliably informed that the Aramaic word in question means 'young woman' and not 'virgin'.)

Personally, I dislike joining in on feminist discussion because frankly I find some posters will absolutely blast you if you don't match up to their exacting standards.
I think this is true of a lot of boards, not just FWR. You should try The Doghouse for size: I've been piled on there (under a previous name, mostly) for disagreeing with one or other of the mantras of the board, as defined by various frequent posters.

It depends what we're defining as judgement really. I have certainly seen posters here cross the line when talking about name changing, and also essentially blaming individual women for the weight of societal pressure. But there are also frequent instances of posters simply not liking the undoubted patriarchal and chattel connotations of the custom being pointed out, and claiming this is judgement or an attempt to stop them having their choice. Basically trying to impose silence.

But this is one of the issues women face generally. We all live under the influence of patriarchy, we all make some accommodations with it because we have to or it makes our lives easier. For most of us there's a bit of both. If we're feminists, it's possible we may feel some guilt at the knowledge of this. The answer to that isn't shooting the messenger, any more than it is to engage in denial or hold individual women responsible without considering structural factors.

The situation in 2019 in the UK is that there is no expectation on women to change their name any more.

I don't think this is true. Just in the past week there's been a post from a woman whose fiancé would prefer her to take his name and posts from women on marriage threads talking about how one of the reasons they do/not want to marry is wanting the same surname/not to change their name. The attitude is a lot less prevalent than it used to be but still exists unfortunately.

The default now is probably for women to keep their own name, just as much as they might name-change.

Not yet. About 25 to 30% of women getting married keep their own name now.

Also yeah, the doctrine of the virgin birth is nowhere close to being the root cause of misogyny through the ages. There are laws, myths and customs shitting on women from millennia before that. The Code of Ur Nammu, for example, predates Christianity by 2000 years, and states that when a woman and a man commit adultery the woman should be executed but the man freed. Or take the story of Eve from the Jewish scriptures, blaming a woman for all the evil in the world. Judaism is of course much older than the virgin birth doctrine.

Jacob - yes I agree with what you’re saying.

I totally understand and respect the reasons why women may not NC in 2019. I also know some women who would love to have the same surname as their children and husband but are deterred from doing so by their own cultural norms which are obviously misogynistic too. But I also know my own reasons for having DH’s name. I know I’m as susceptible to cultural pressures as anyone else, but I wish people wouldn’t presume to tell me that I haven’t thought deeply enough about such matters or that I just don’t understand. I do understand, I just made a different decision with my eyes wide open.