AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

I don’t see that re domestic issues? I see a huge proportion saying he has to pull his weight. To the point you get a few suggesting that it is overplayed and people are saying ft workers should do half the housework and this is unfair. (On balance I think the balance is right)

We’re quite good at talking about ‘wife work’ which is an often invisible load outside mn.

I don't want to derail the thread any further (sorry Bertram) but there is a huge difference between criticising Stonewall's current behaviour / stance and comparing them to right-wing anti-choice homophobic groups which is what a PP was doing. They are not the same thing, historically or presently.

They're both presently throwing women and in particular lesbians under the bus though. And pretty much nobody thinks that historical Stonewall, back when they weren't woman hating and shitting on lesbians, were the same thing as right wing homophobic anti-choice groups. It's about now.

On other points, I would agree that helping women navigate and support the caring penalties (not just childcare, elder care is relevant here too) is one of the most important issues. I actually do think this is discussed all the time on MN, just not necessarily given that exact description. There are threads on AIBU most weeks about this, it just gets dressed up as SAHM v WOHM, how much money do you or your partner earn or how important is marriage. But the discussion is had.

I think in terms of wife work the overwhelming suggestions i see are write him a list or get a cleaner, both of which drive me to despair.

Write a list 😫 agree on that. I’m not a reminder service.

I think in terms of wife work the overwhelming suggestions i see are write him a list or get a cleaner, both of which drive me to despair.

The thing that drives me to despair is the proportion of men with oh such important jobs they can never reliably pick up or drop off a child anywhere. They are your children too

I think in terms of wife work the overwhelming suggestions i see are write him a list or get a cleaner, both of which drive me to despair
I agree! He doesn't need a chore list. He's not a child.

Then again, I do think a conversation about expectations can be valuable in terms of setting the agenda.

One thing I find confusing is that some women on here challenge others who suggest men take responsibility and function as an adult and not be a man child. I've certainly been told I'm "lucky" not to be married to a man child, but the reality is that we wouldn't be married if he was feckless.

To the point you get a few suggesting that it is overplayed and people are saying ft workers should do half the housework and this is unfair.

FT workers should do half the housework when both partners are FT. The problem is a lot of men's idea of equality is that the woman goes to work AND does everything round the house. Or that because they work they can sit on their arses all weekend and basically never ever lift a finger to do anything because their wife is a SAHM so it's her job

Me too Lola I've been told DH isn't normal and it's been implied I'm actually lying that he can sort the kids lunches out etc 😂

Is it overwhelming suggestions or are we more likely not to notice ones in line with our own views. This could be applied to any topic on mn, the Cons about Labour and vice versa and so on.

Yes not if both work ft btw.

I feel very strongly about what I won’t do to hand hold on stuff and I’m sure I’m not alone on this.

Women in their thousands are raped on their own homes by their partners. Women in their hundreds are murdered by their parters every year

And the partners could be or identify as female at the time. Is it still rape then? Is murder just as heinous when a woman does it? The questions that go through my head.

When you say 'all women' here, what do you mean?
I mean the women who make up the majority of posters on this site regardless of whether they describe themselves as feminist or not.

Women in their thousands are raped on their own homes by their partners. Women in their hundreds are murdered by their parters every year

And the partners could be or identify as female at the time. Is it still rape then? Is murder just as heinous when a woman does it? The questions that go through my head.

The partners identify as furries. Is it still rape then? Or should it be classified as an attack by an animal - what if we go to dogs that attach humans? Rather a silly train of thought isn’t it, which is exactly why a man in a flipping dress identifying as whatever deluded thought he has in his mind still commits rape/murder.

I've just had a quick look at the Relationships Board, theres really good advice regarding coercive control, theiving DPs, disrespectful DPs. Of course there are also some posts that are not so good but the majority of them are pretty feminist even if the word itself isnt being used. And opposing points on a thread are very useful as they can demonstrate arguments the OP may face IRL and help her counter them.

And the partners could be or identify as female at the time. Is it still rape then?

Why would it not be?

I do see a lot of "what if this situation was reversed" or "women can be just as bad" type of stuff. It's as if some women are in such a hurry to protect and defend men from the mean women. I always think-why? Men don't need you to back them up!
You can't always flip everything and get am equivalent outcome. Men and women are not the same. Of equal value-yes. Identical? No, of course not.
When I first got together with DP I checked his phone a few times, looking for anything that seemed dodgy (violent porn, hookup sites etc). He seemed like a lovely guy but I wanted to make as sure as I could that there were not going to be any nasty surprises, and to make sure I was careful who I introduced my dc to.
Now, a lot of poster on MN would say that was a terrible thing to do, and how would I feel if he checked up on me, but the fact is that men are more of a risk to women and children than the other way round.
Just acknowledging this is not "hating all men" but my God there are a lot of posters out there who worry sooo much about poor men and it sort of makes me laugh, how even online women put their needs last.

And the partners could be or identify as female at the time. Is it still rape then?

In the UK, rape requires a penis. So only men can do it, however they happen to be identifying at the time.

Blakes I do think for some situations there's validity in saying "if this situation was reversed", particularly with regards to policing friendships, snooping through phones etc.
To me, unless there are valid reasons then there's no reason to be routinely policing friendships.
What we see a lot of is men who snoop and dictate friendships being branded as controlling (and rightly so!), But the when an OP turns up saying that they're not happy about their DP going for post work drinks because a female colleague is there, the general consensus seems to be she's absolutely right to be saying that's not ok.

Equally, men snooping through phones is branded jealous and insecure and controlling (rightly!), but if an OP says she wants to go snooping then she's routinely encouraged by people saying "there's no smoke without fire".

Some say a woman is fine to move their new man in after a couple of months, but also say that men who are non resident parents should wait at least 9 months and the introduction to his new partner should be approved by the mum or she should keep out if mum isn't happy. In reality, neither parent should be dropping partners in and out of their children's lives, but it seems more accepted for mums than dads.

Other times "If it was reversed..." Doesn't work, but I do think there's some conduct accepted from female OPs that would be slated from a man

There are some double standards on relationships threads, but I think that's a reflection of the fact that must MNers are women and therefore naturally tend to identify with the woman's perspective in relationship discussions.

So if a man was looking through his DW's phone, they might tend to think, "what if my DH was looking through my phone, how would I feel about that?". But if a woman was looking through her DH's home they might tend to think, "what if I had a reason to look through my DH's phone - would that ever be justifiable?".

As a result you get two different responses due to the reversal of perspective even though the situations are identical once you strip out that sex of each party.

Yeah I get what you are saying Lola- and I definitely think there are times when if it was reversed (and there's no reason why it shouldn't be) there are double standards with financial stuff. There's a lot of women i think who deep down feel that men should shoulder the breadwinner role all the time, and that those men should be happy to always take that role. I don't think we can get equality if men are never expected to cut their hours/go part timr/even think about asking for flexible working. That's often on the men-many don't want those things- but some do and it would actually benefit us if we supported the idea that women don't automatically have to be attached to children and barely working for years and years, and men don't have to nessecarily earn more and never resent being the main earner.
Economic freedom, to me, is key. I'm a working class (probably, despite my airs and graces! ) woman who rents and doesn't earn much, not some hardened career bitch stereotype, and it's exactly women like me who can see that giving up your financial power to rely on a man is usually nuts.
RE the phone thing: If a man checked my phone because he thinks I might be cheating on him, that's gonna piss me off. If I check a mans phone just to see if he accesses dodgy stuff online I am protecting my kids and myself. I want to know as much as possible about the man I let in our lives. Totally with you on not moving men in after a few months too. Child protection is always first in my mind and I don't really care if I offend or hurt a mans feelings when it comes to that.

"Double standards" might be a legitimate criticism in many instances if women and men were truly equal or more to the point, if women were not members of a class oppressed by men as a class. Women need to protect themselves from men; it is seldom the other way around.

If you can focus on child raising without making an assumption that women are naturally more likely to want to do it that might help forward the discussion. Our biology ( pregnancy and birth ) coupled with our society makes it most likely we will be lumbered with the caring role. Hormone independent

Clearly, there is a biological physical link for babies that should be better supported. How many women would actually prefer to hand baby to a wet nurse for that ? We don't know because it's socially unacceptable. The fact that upper class women routinely did this suggests that not being heavily invested in child rearing could be more commonplace amongst women than is often assumed.

For career oriented women, career and financial penalties faced by women who give birth are way disproportionate to the actually time out that these women take. Which suggests it's societies interpretation that's the problem. We don't need to think about the biology, we need to think about the assumptions that are driving the dehumanising of women once they become mothers

We need to think about the way society does not value critical things like caring for each other. Clearly some people love that role. Again it's a external view that doesn't need any talk of hormones and biology. Because any solution ideally should work for caring men as well as women.

NotDavidTennant
I see what you mean on that front, but still think it's worth being aware that double standard exists.
Some people deny it exists, which can lead to really unhelpful advice, either because rather than reassuring a poster and explaining there's a whole range of reasonable options they choose to validate the unreasonable conclusion of the poster in the name of support, or because they seem to think that sisterhood/feminism means siding with the woman in any given situation.

Often things are more complex and I'm not sure that automatically validating the view / actions of a female poster is necessarily feminist.

Blakes77
You're spot on on financial freedom and equality. I also agree that men not taking on an equal burden with childcare, days off for child illness, flexible working etc hinders moves towards equality.

One of my friends said he found it really hard to be taken seriously looking for a part time job in a school. He wanted to work term time only to be around in the holidays with his kids.
Equally, some people have told me I'm lucky that DH is taking extended paternity leave, with the main naysayers actually being women who think that DH is stealing "my leave" from me and how they "wouldn't be giving up their year off for DH to have a holiday", whereas we see it as two parents taking parental leave.

senecaFalls
Women as a class need to protect themselves from men as a class, absolutely. I'm not sure that can be used as a get out clause for unreasonable behaviour on the part of women (eg. As a mum I can introduce my DP to the children after 3 months and to hell with what my ex says, but if my ex so much as brings his new DP of 6 months out for coffee with our kids then I'll hit the roof because it's not appropriate).

For career oriented women, career and financial penalties faced by women who give birth are way disproportionate to the actually time out that these women take. Which suggests it's societies interpretation that's the problem
Yes, exactly that. All of our individual choices are one thing, but we operate within a context of wider society, all of us.
I was a single mum so having children impacted on my economic present and future massively, but yes, even married women are disproportionately affected by maternity.
I'm the most maternal person ever-I love kids and agree that caring roles are massively undervalued (because it's seen as women's work) but I also want it recognised that generally children have 2 parents and they are equally responsible.
I also agree that women need protection from men a lot more than men need protection from women, and there is often a pretence on here that that's somehow sexist.
For example, it's often said on MN that if a woman hits a man its just as bad as a man hitting a woman. I don't beleive that. I don't think anyone I know in rl believes that.
Now, I have never hit anyone and never would, outside of self defense, but I know full well that if I punched my male partner he a) wouldn't be physically hurt and b) wouldn't be scared I might kill him. If he hit me I would very very hurt and fucking terrified. Men are stronger than we realise sometimes. I am a tough, solid woman and DP is a slender man but in a playfight (wrestling over the last chocolate biscuit) he can hold me in place with one hand. That's reality. That's why we need places women can be vulnerable away from men-prison, hospital etc, because like it or not we ARE sometimes vulnerable.

PS don't worry he always let's me have the last chocolate biscuit in the end. That's why I'm solid

Personally, I dislike joining in on feminist discussion because frankly I find some posters will absolutely blast you if you don't match up to their exacting standards. I remember on a thread before, I think about women leaving themselves vulnerable after having children and I talked about how myself and DP contribute equally to our home, both work the same hours and take the same amount of unpaid leave when our child is sick etc etc, I had a big long post. But because I mentioned I gave my DD her father's surname, my entire rest of post was ignored and I had to suddenly defend myself from all the "proper" feminists who used it as a stick to beat me round the head with . I have many reasons to not give her mine but apparently I should have changed my surname entirely and given that one to my DD rather than just give her her dad's. Ok yeah sure . It wasn't even the topic under discussion so why pounce so eagerly to tell me how wrong and unfeminist I am? It just leaves a bad taste.