AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

‘Goddard had something to say about that^

Er, Goddard had nothing to say about it at all. You’re thinking of Godwin actually. Your post is a logical fallacy fail. As Jacob implied. Guilt by association? Sorry. No sale

“ Do you regularly invoke Hitler in arguments while accusing other people of being intellectually ridiculous? Goddard had something to say about that wink.”

Nice wink at the end while getting the name wrong. 😆

I don’t regularly invoke Hitler, no. Nice dissemble away from the point though.

Ok if you take out the feminist board then it’s hard to quantify but I’d say it’s mixed and probably not much different. Although a much bigger mn than before which might have attracted a certain type of poster.

I find we’re quite good on stuff like toy issues although some say too far (that campaign), good on religion in that many will understand how patriarchal it can be and generally better than 90% of the internet - although that’s no great shakes as the internet is woeful

Your argument makes about as much sense as saying that pro trans LGBT types must all be in support of the Iranian regime because they have a common cause on this one issue.

You are completely mischaracterising my argument.

Pro-trans people do not, to my knowledge, cheerlead for oppressive regimes.

GC feminists don't need to cheerlead for pro-choice, homophobic, anti-trans campaigners because they have a perfectly good argument without needing dodgy allies.

By certain type of poster I mean in the early days when it was probably a narrower audience

Homophobic groups... like Stonewall, who now define being lesbian or gay as ‘same-gender’ attraction and call the police on women who protest outside their conferences in defence of lesbian rights. Or Pride, who condemn the same women as terfs & bigots.

I was. It’s got a bit out of hand. I am experiencing the social media equivalent of trying to get a fold up tent back in its bag.......

😂😂😂😂

Sorry this is partly me - I have no idea what their issue was but honestly the whole thread piled in against me for mentioning male violence against males. I was baffled then and still am. It was to do with feminism being about the rights of repressed women. I probably worded my post badly but it was a strange and depressing introduction to the board. I will 🤐 now.

I read a lot of these threads because I'm interested in the issues, how they effect me and my family and wider society. I wouldn't post here to offer an opinion and I certainly wouldn't ask a question because it often feels like a club. The same posters shouting people into submission and thinking that they have won an argument. There maybe clever trolls posting about certain subjects to draw out a rant, when the pile on starts and the personal attacks I know there's no useful debate going to happen anymore. I don't know if it's as feminist as it was years ago, I know feminism is constantly evolving and I also know that these boards are dominated not just by subject but by posters who will not debate but will just tell you you are wrong.

Again, I appreciate not all gender critical feminists do this and I am grateful for those who stand against it. But the willingness to ignore everything else in pursuit of "the cause" happens enough on the FWR boards

Yes, this is my problem. If you have a good argument you don't need to line up with the likes of Piers Morgan and Caroline Farrow, who'd take away some of your hard-won rights tomorrow and will cynically use the trans issue to achieve this.

It's possible to be GC and also critical of the motives of other people who happen to share your views on one narrow issue.

There is no point in keeping men out of women's refuges if you also get into bed with people who would defund those refuges without blinking.

Comparing Stonewall - a group which, whatever you think of their current stance on trans issues, has done so much to protect and advance the rights of gay, lesbian and bisexual people - to right-wing anti-choice homophobic groups is disgusting. They are not equivalent. Doing so is yet another illustration of the obsession some (many) GC feminists have with one issue to the detriment of all others.

You are completely mischaracterising my argument.

Pro-trans people do not, to my knowledge, cheerlead for oppressive regimes.

No, it's just not a very good argument.

What you are essentially saying is that the problem isn't with having some common cause with an objectionable group or ideology. Rather it's acknowledging that this common cause exists. So it's absolutely fine that TRA types and the Islamic Republic are pushing similar views on a particular issue, provided everyone pretends it isn't happening and certainly as long as nobody stops to think about why a homophobic, misogynistic regime might find this ideology attractive.

This quest for ideological purity isn't going to help us, and it particularly isn't going to help when so much of the progressive left have entirely abdicated any responsibility or common sense on the issue. If you were simply saying that we should point out when someone's being an arsehole regardless of whether they correctly identify the threat posed by trans ideology to women, that would be a reasonable point, but you've gone rather beyond that. When so much institutional capture has gone on already, lots of luxuries are not open to us.

Lots and lots of people on the stonewall twitter are raising concerns about it's current approach not just gc feminists
Sorry bert I think I have been talking about fwr as well, I am shit with tents though.

Homophobic groups... like Stonewall,

It is possible to believe that Stonewall and Pride are wrong on a specific issue without denying their historic role in the struggle for gay rights.

So if you think stonewall is homophobic are you not meant to say so, because of its history?

I've been on MN for 14 years. FWR opened my eyes to the growing issue of self ID, which is both a 'blessing' and a 'curse' because now I can't unsee what's happening to female rights and safeguarding.

Child protection and safeguarding is regularly discussed on FWR. The dismantling of boundaries, inappropriate and disturbing behaviour by the NSPCC, teaching gender ideology as fact in schools and expecting girls to put up and shut up are issues we should be discussing.

Why has there been a 4,000 per cent increase in girls being referred to gender identity clinics? Newsnight this week tapped in to the woeful lack of medical research surrounding SRS and hormone treatment in children. Children for fucks sake.

Just reading the transwidows threads is also an eye opener.

The forum has also drawn my attention to other feminist issues - there is a current thread about the fact that around half of all women will be carers by the age of 45. The Ohio story is chilling, as was the murder of Grace Millane, which was also discussed there this week.

Wait! So... GC women are now not allowed to acept understanding and help from anyone other than peole on some list we haven't seen?

I may dislike Morgan as a stuffed shirt, but if even he can see that there is something amiss then the issue is real.

Farrow has religious bias to her views. Does that make the witch hunt, scaring her kids, etc acceptable? Can I not be angry on her behalf whilst disgreeing with the religious colouring to her views?

It's possible to be GC and also critical of the motives of other people who happen to share your views on one narrow issue. Yes! As many GC posters are, and say so every time this comes up

Oh, and again and again: These are not trans issues but a continuing legal creep to erode women's rights. Calling them trans issues is a sleight of hand designed to further deny women a voice... make it ALL about the mens!

Yes peachgreen, does this mean that because an individual or body has done a lot of good things in the past, they're entitled to a pass if they start doing things that are not so good? If so, for how long? Because there would seem to be quite a lot of flaws with that approach.

“ It was to do with feminism being about the rights of repressed women. I probably worded my post badly but it was a strange and depressing introduction to the board. I will 🤐 now.”
Heavens no don’t! I think that male violence is an incredibly important topic. I’ve struggled on threads not on FWR when I have talked about violence being something that men as a class should be thinking about- there are always lots of “Why should non violent men have to do anything about violent men- it’s nothing to do with them!” Which is very frustrating. It is that sort of thing I’m talking about. And the fact that whenever anyone mentions domestic violence someone always says “But women do it too” . I think this is happening more and more. As is the idea that somehow women should be the ones to solve the problem...

Yet we devote so much energy and space on this forum to a small group of people, of whom there are very few examples of criminality or anti social behaviour. People cherry pick examples like Karen White but they aren't representative or pervasive as some would have us believe

Another person missing the point about Karen White which is not that KW is trans but that KW is male.

Under a policy of self id and 'acceptance without exception', any man could do a Karen White and get into a women's prison. And if you think that men won't abuse that, especially men that have already been convicted of sexual crimes then you are totally naive.

Comparing Stonewall - a group which, whatever you think of their current stance on trans issues, has done so much to protect and advance the rights of gay, lesbian and bisexual people - to right-wing anti-choice homophobic groups is disgusting. Yes. So disgusting that one of Stonewall's founders have set up another group to counter the current bias of Stonewall!

Sorry Bert as I have focused on FWR.

I've also been on recent AIBU threads where the OP has asked if MN is sexist towards men and some of the responses were grim.

Stonewall has gone a bit weird, frankly. Describing the attack on two women who were beaten up for refusing to kiss to gratify some scummy little man as transphobia is very odd. As is their apparent disregard for safeguarding.

Oh shit, fell into the trap again!

On the whole aligining with people you normally wouldn't. Well yes, it's uncomfortable. Some of the people Posie Parker is hanging out with these days are not people I agree with. But that is discussed on the boards and within any movement there are always disagreements about how things should be done, this is one of them.

Caroline Farrow is not someone I agree with on probably pretty much any other issue apart from that we agree that humans can't change sex and that children should not be given permanently life changing and irreversible drugs before they have barely reached puberty. I find her views on abortion and homosexuality pretty abhorrent. Does that mean I think she should be subjected to what she is being subjected to, mostly by men, at the moment? No.

This quest for ideological purity isn't going to help us

I'd be the first to agree with this. Sometimes you do have to agree to work with people with whom you disagree, in order to make progress in the right general direction.

But in order to make progress on women's rights, you cannot prioritise one issue to the extent that you enable people who would harm women's interests in other areas.

Keeping men out of women's refuges while making common cause with people who would remove funding for women's refuges does not, overall, help the women who need to use those refuges. Focussing on keeping a small number of predatory men out of women's prisons should not be at the expense of campaigning to keep vulnerable non-violent women out of prison in the first place. (Of course it is possible to do both these things - but not when the focus is on trans issues at the expense of all else).