AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

I do think in regards to feminism on MN, there is a few posters with a sense of superiority about them. Theres also some ridiculous threads. Such as the one earlier this year that wanted nail extensions banned because that's what stops women becoming Brain Surgeons.

Apparantly women feel under such pressure to have nice nails, it impacted their job choice. Despite not having anything to back that up, then the OP claimed she found long nails threatening and women who had them aggressive. Yes, nails were impacting womens carers more than maternity leave, sex pay gap, sexism etc and also made women look aggressive.

And yes some of the well known feminist posters came on and supported that view.

As I said before, I have seen some of the well known feminist posters here, deny posters experiences of being abused by their mothers. Apparantly 'we believe you' does apply if your abuser was a woman.

However, theres lots of very good points made by these posters as well.

On the other hand the talk of mn in general becoming less feminist, is something I dont agree on. Posters talk from their own point of view. If the men you are surrounded with a decent men, who treat you as an equal of course you are going to defend their stance. If men in your life who you love are in a particular situation that you recognise, of course that going to colour your view.

And then some people dont know they are being abused in their own life. I was abused by exh and didnt realise. So I would have read threads and though 'dh does that but only because hevis worried for my saftey'. Not sure that having a go at these posters, talking down to them, calling them hand maidens etc is helping anyone.

And yes on here, anyone who disagrees is called a hand maiden or a cool wife or any other name, to try and shut them down.

What I am saying is, that as MN is a bunch of people from different backgrounds and experiences we all have different views. And neither the feminists or everyone else is right all the time.

Obviously people don’t have to be nice but sarcasm annoys anyone to the point of why bother in the first place.

I’d still get rid of handmaiden insult (why insult people who differ) as that’s when you know you’re talking to women.

Cool wife is another one that has to go. That’s pretty juvenile for a start. And most likely inaccurate whatever it is meant to mean.

Feminism is a tainted brand which people are more and more moving past. It’s a reductive, supremacist movement and like most other isms people embrace it, explore it and then in increasing numbers reject it.

I’m a committed egalitarian.

So what if women behave/post in ways we find shocking, or damaging, or defamatory, or untrue?

Do we still have to be polite and kind and measured?

Ok carry on then but why start this thread asking why people don’t engage as much

there is a long history of telling women to be nicer, or use gentler language. You catch more flies with honey- and so on. But it doesn’t seem to make any difference, frankly! Point out inequality- and be told “Tell me about it in different, sweeter words and I might just pay attention”

Whilst I agree that this does happen to women. Being a rude, name calling and condenesending isnt the solution.

You can be nice and assertive.

And this is part of the issue. Feminists saying 'I am sick of being nice so I am going to rude, shut peoples opinions down that I dont agree with and not discuss with them like they are an equal'

When actually, you can be assertive, factual have boundaries whilst being respectful.

And you are not the only women in the equation. So what if people find the feminism board aggressive and unwelcoming and stay away

Feminism on Mumsnet has become a bit of an echo chamber full of people who are obsessive about one issue without seeing the wider picture (the attack on the rights of many historically disadvantaged groups).

You can see this in the willingness to stand next to people with distinctly dodgy histories when it comes to women's rights, just because they are on the "right side" of the trans issue. For me if you make common cause with anti-choice homophobes you do not stand with me or my lesbian daughter.

I do see Mumsnet as "less feminist" as a result; in fact in the time I've been on here (4 or 5 years at a guess), Mumsnet appears to have become increasingly reactionary in many ways.

“ Ok carry on then but why start this thread asking why people don’t engage as much”
Carry on doing what?

Actually- to be clear my OP wasn’t soposed to be about why people don’t engage- it was about non feminist attitudes being more widely expressed generally. As I said- the thread that got me thinking was on Radio Addicts!

I don't care to read about some 'boogeyman' trans person who apparently fakes it to use a women's locker room at the gym or whatever.

Does the 'apparently' mean you're unaware of Jessica Yaniv?

“ You can see this in the willingness to stand next to people with distinctly dodgy histories when it comes to women's rights, just because they are on the "right side" of the trans issue. For me if you make common cause with anti-choice homophobes you do not stand with me or my lesbian daughter.”

That’s intellectually ridiculous though. Do you reject all vegetarians because Hitler was one?

Do we still have to be polite and kind and measured?

You dont have to be anything. But you cabt really be shocked, when people dont want to engage or switch off when people insult and belittle them.

Be what you want, but dont expect people to react how you want.

I am a director or a large company. I deal with people being Inflamatory all the time. Usually employees, other directors, sometimes customers.

I can sit there and being g
Inflammatory as well or I can be polite and assertive and get my point across. In the situation where the person just wants to be a dick for the sake of being a dick, I remain polite and assertive.

If they are down right rude and aggressive, they are asked to leave and invited back when they are willing to discuss it in a productive way.

Shockingly, 99% of the time I get a good outcome. Not always because some people are just dicks and want to wind you up, in which case I wont engage with them. We follow other routes.

At no point do I win by being a dick. I want people to understand a different point of view. That's not achieved by being a dick. It's about being assertive and in control.

Doing this face annoying enough.

Feminist issues might be more talked about on mn if it wasn’t corralled (through sarky responses) by the few that’s what people are saying to you.

I assumed when you said “you” you meant me personally. If you didn’t, I apologise and retract my !

So what if women behave/post in ways we find shocking, or damaging, or defamatory, or untrue?

Do we still have to be polite and kind and measured?

MN makes us all reconsider our views and that is healthy. For me the answer here is honesty and directness that makes people reflect rather than actual nastiness.

And my views of the feminist boards actually pre-date the trans stuff. I don't completely disagree with some of that anyway, I'm concerned about the future for women's sport for example.

My frustration is the stuff around male violence which is a massive problem in our society and needs to be properly tackled. I cannot however separate in my head or in reality male violence against women (awful clearly and significant issue with women's lives) and male violence against males which is also a massive problem and rooted in misogyny. I think making it a female problem is unhelpful, so apparently I'm not feminist. Okay then.

Appreciated I loathe that face

Just in general not you. People aren’t actually saying you must do anything. Just that sarky responses can be off putting and make some post in other topics which drives down the overall feel of feminism non mn.

But people are talking about it. As traffic shows. And for those saying but if it puts some people off it's not working, it will always put some people off. So if FWR became a place where porn and prostitution were seen as empowering I would go elsewhere. Now that might not be a great loss but its current approach for want of a better word is attracting some people who otherwise would not engage. Sorry that explanation isn't the clearest.

That’s intellectually ridiculous though. Do you reject all vegetarians because Hitler was one?

Do you regularly invoke Hitler in arguments while accusing other people of being intellectually ridiculous? Goddard had something to say about that .

Vegetarians are not in my experience generally cheerleaders for Hitler. Some MN feminists have become cheerleaders for some anti-choice, homophobic and frankly dangerous people who happen to share their view on the trans issue.

@Teateaandmoretea - I’m not sure what you mean about male violence being made a female problem. While 95% of violent crime continues to be committed by men it’s a male problem if anything! I think the problem is that men seem unwilling to do anything to tackle it- surely men should be taking the lead?

You can see this in the willingness to stand next to people with distinctly dodgy histories when it comes to women's rights, just because they are on the "right side" of the trans issue. For me if you make common cause with anti-choice homophobes you do not stand with me or my lesbian daughter.

The horribly homophobic Islamic Republic of Iran is very into the idea that people can change sex, and the state pays for surgeries. Whilst imprisoning and torturing gay men and lesbians. Your argument makes about as much sense as saying that pro trans LGBT types must all be in support of the Iranian regime because they have a common cause on this one issue.

I thought op was talking about feminsit attitudes in general not the feminsit board in particular...you know threads like I won't go out with him again as he didn't pay...which might be fair enough if there is a wealth gap but on first reading is very supportive of an unequal society

And also threads where the man gets a bashing when a woman wouldn't I also don't think are terribly feminist, where expectation of different standards between men and women is demonstrated

And I feel that just reflects society at large. The law may promote equality, but society generally doesn't. Most people hold unconscious bias. Many women don't actually support feminism because ( probably a result of upbringing) it's too much hard work. Taking responsibility for yourself. Reminds me of a recent exoeriance, really sad, an older woman's husband died and she is totally helpless. He was the centre of her universe. She cooked . Looked after the kids and kept pretty. She is adrift.

FWIW, I think it's a reflection of stress in society , fear of the future, coupled with an increasing focus on image supported by social media, all of which makes people more likely to conform.

Totally agree @greykitten. It's so depressing to see "feminists" praising misogynists like Piers Morgan, aligning themselves with pro-life and/or homophobic groups and deciding to vote for the most anti-women political parties there are over one issue. I also find the fawning over Great White Male Saviours like Glinner utterly nauseating.

Again, I appreciate not all gender critical feminists do this and I am grateful for those who stand against it. But the willingness to ignore everything else in pursuit of "the cause" happens enough on the FWR boards that it's clear to me that it's not a place for me and my feminism.

As an aside, I find the repeated assertion on this thread that MN is less feminist because of the "invasion" from Netmums (and the word "Nethuns" itself, yuck) pretty unfeminist too!

Do you regularly invoke Hitler in arguments while accusing other people of being intellectually ridiculous? I suspect that is precisely what that poster meant!

You may have misunderstood.

Goddard had something to say about that That would be Godwin

“ I thought op was talking about feminsit attitudes in general not the feminsit board in particular.”

I was. It’s got a bit out of hand. I am experiencing the social media equivalent of trying to get a fold up tent back in its bag.......