AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

It would be good to stop "gatekeeping" feminism. It's not an exclusive club. Feminism exists for the benefit of women. All women.

When you say 'all women' here, what do you mean?

I find it very uncomfortable that I hold views that in some ways are similar to views held by people I despise. But I’m not going to change my views because of it. That would be daft.

I'd be interested to hear how you envisage this looking then greykitten, not least because from what I've seen on FWR, there's also quite a lot of criticism of the likes of Piers Morgan. I admit I don't read every single thread on there but I did read the most recent one when he made his comments about sport, and there was a fairly robust discussion about his positives and negatives then. And from what I can see, GC feminists are talking about and fundraising for refuges in the absence of much support from elsewhere, quite often.

(Of course it is possible to do both these things - but not when the focus is on trans issues retaining the rights of women at the expense of all else).

Doesn't make sense that way, does it?

Which is why I said the use of the term trans issues is a smoke screen we need to do away with.

O'll try that again

^(Of course it is possible to do both these things - but not when the focus is on trans issues retaining the rights of women at the expense of all else).

I find it very uncomfortable that I hold views that in some ways are similar to views held by people I despise. But I’m not going to change my views because of it. That would be daft.

No, of course not, that's not what I'm trying to argue (badly, it seems).

@HandsOffMyRights - I tried to find the sexist against men thread but I couldn’t. Is it still there?

“ No, of course not, that's not what I'm trying to argue (badly, it seems).”

Not badly at all- it’s me being thick. What did you mean?

Here it is Bert

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3746967-to-suggest-that-Mumsnet-is-quite-sexist-against-men

I posted on the sexist against men thread. I don’t think mn is but I do think there are sometimes double standards, usually around earning.

No, of course not, that's not what I'm trying to argue (badly, it seems). Could we start with common ground, see where we diverge?

Sometimes it boils down to semantics

Keeping men out of women's refuges while making common cause with people who would remove funding for women's refuges does not, overall, help the women who need to use those refuges.

So have you been fundraising for refuges and found it difficult because of the trans issue then? Could you expand?

There are plenty of GC feminists who have done shitloads to help women in prison and women who have experience violence from men etc. Julie Bindel and Karen Ingala Smith come to mind.

And now these women are being told that they are doing 'feminism wrong' because they refuse to include males.

Fuck that.

The OP had previously been on a 'changing rooms thread' wondering why some of us want single sex spaces

Which is why I said the use of the term trans issues is a smoke screen we need to do away with.

So why is 95% of the feminist energy on here spent on endlessly debating that one topic?

I'd be keen to participate in a wider feminist discussion about women in the prison system, for example. But all people on here want to talk about is men in women's prisons. Of course men shouldn't be in a women's prison! But neither should most of those women.

(The OP on the 'is MN sexist towards men' not this OP!)

Haven’t read the whole thread, sorry, but I just wanted to give my perspective on previous posts saying that FWR is all about trans, and mentioning a couple of current issues that aren’t really getting much coverage. I’ve posted links to stories about both of them- We can’t consent to this, and the Ohio ectopic pregnancy bill- on my Facebook. I do that with any women’s rights issues that aren’t related to trans, to try and reach a wider audience. I think a lot of feminists do the same. So we don’t “need” the space here to discuss those issues as much, because we do it out in public. Whereas the trans issue is more likely to get you banned or doxxed, so I talk about it here or in private groups.

Shame that this thread has been hijacked by the trans issue. Same old arguments, round and round in circles of sneering debate. Hardly surprising most people switch off to this type of “feminism” is it?

I'd like to read that thread. Maybe you could start it.

I do think there are double standards on MN and that some threads which are started by men would turn out totally differently if they had been started by a woman.

Also, men are always told, quite rightly, that if they want to campaign about their own issues such as suicide or DV then they should do that themselves and mot expect women to do it for them. However, I have seen threads on here complaining when that has happened 'because it's not men that need the help' etc and I totally disagree with that as well.

But it's always been like that. That's not a new phenomenon.

I’ve been on MN for 16 years and a radical feminist for 25 years.

I’ve seen various incarnations of the feminist board here. I rarely go on them at the moment, it’s not that it’s just trans trans trans, I think when it comes to women’s rights, mumsnets discussions are pretty good.

What I find about the board at the moment is it ironically is very strict on what you can say and the very strict gender critical stance is the only acceptable way to be on there.

I would really really like to debate the gender critical stance. I think there is a massive tendency to totally dismiss any criticism of the social conditioning theory (it is just a theory) and an absolute dismissal of any biological arguments. I find that tedious, I don’t believe we are blank slates and dare to go down that route on the boards at the moment and it’s instant shut down. Gender critical is the only conversation that will be had.

Which is ironic since the trans debate hinges around biology

Comparing Stonewall - a group which, whatever you think of their current stance on trans issues, has done so much to protect and advance the rights of gay, lesbian and bisexual people - to right-wing anti-choice homophobic groups is disgusting.

DONE so much. Past tense. And in those days I volunteered for them & had a standing order set up. But they’ve changed completely & make it very clear that nowadays they don’t give a flying fuck about lesbians. We’re not where the money is any more.

So why is 95% of the feminist energy on here spent on endlessly debating that one topic?

Well, as another poster has pointed out, MN is the only place online that people can come together and discuss the issue.

Feminist issues might be more talked about on mn if it wasn’t corralled (through sarky responses) by the few that’s what people are saying to you

I think that’s probably right

I don't understand the 'you just get shut down' thing.

Put across an articulate, well thought out argument, backed up with evidence and facts, and that will be impossible to shut down, won't it? And when someone tries to 'shut you down' back up your own opinion again with something else?

Not badly at all- it’s me being thick. What did you mean?

I'm not sure that I can put it any better than I already have: "in order to make overall progress on women's rights, you cannot prioritise one issue to the extent that you enable people who would harm women's interests in other areas".