AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

I think that's because women of an age to be having babies now have grown up with liberal feminism and don't see how cockcentric, corporate and unchallenging it is.

Liberal feminism is none of these things. Perhaps you need to remind yourself that it has an actual thing and not a MNFeminist bogeyman. This is a good starting point
plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/

The problem is that we really are dealing with mutually exclusive rights. The only solution really is 3rd spaces, I suppose. And 3rd categories for things like data gathering. It’s not perfect, but best of a bad job, surely?

I think it's not only the attitude to women issues that's causing me concern but the attitude towards children. Porn, etc all impact negatively on children so to see people cheerleading for them is profoundly worrying.

And so another really interesting thread gets hijacked by "some of you are so transphobic and think people shouldn't exist" rhetoric.

I differ in views from some of the more "big name" FWR posters, but the endless "you're mean and think trans people shouldn't exist you don't support self ID in all forms" is really quite silly.

Jpharm, I think a significant number of women on the feminsit boards are happy to support trans rights..,they were this week promoting a petition on behalf of some transwomen for example

There are a few whose reactions seem very extreme, I sometimes wonder if some of them are just pals of the MRA brigade who invade occasionally ( some sort of bad cop worse cop routine looking to whip up hatred , or they could equally just be badly scarred women, or just nasty people. who knows on the internet)

I honestly don’t want to get sidelined. But have you ever thought why a woman’s name is her father’s- but a man’s name is his own?
I don’t think that’s true at all. A male child carries his fathers name (traditionally in the uk), just as a female one does. Of course that’s in the Christian west, Muslim women don’t change their names.

@5zeds- I was responding to your comment-
“ Why is it more feminist to keep your fathers name than use your partners?”

“ Jpharm, I think a significant number of women on the feminsit boards are happy to support trans rights”

I’m gender critical and I am happy to support trans rights! I think we should be working to find solutions to the places where rights conflict.

Oh look those bad gender critical feminists are bringing up trans rights again! Do they ever stop wanting to discuss them? Why can’t they talk about other women’s issues?

I know, let’s go on to this thread about whether or not Mumsnet has a less feminist approach and talk about.......poor trans and how nasty those feminists are, talking about them all the time. Then every time the OP tries to steer it away from centring trans people, we’ll insist on dragging it back about trans people and how those feminists keep taking about them.

You couldn’t fucking make it up!

And so another really interesting thread gets hijacked by "some of you are so transphobic and think people shouldn't exist" rhetoric.

I don’t hear this rhetoric often at all. The transphobes on here are pretty much left to it on their own little feminism board bubble where they all congratulate each other on their superior opinions, no one can be bothered to debate with them anymore because its boring and exhausting. You just end up getting hounded for daring to say what is being widely accepted in the real world so it’s actually quite refreshing to see on here people share their views without certain Jack Russells on acid biting at everyone’s ankles.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily
It's exactly like that.

Then again a week or so ago there was one where an OP decided to 'just ask if MN was sexist' and then proceeded to sealion and take any challenge as proof at how mean women on MN are and how they hate men.

It seems to be a trend at the moment of turning up with the intent of goading women, telling women off for talking about problems affecting women, and telling them to be nice.

Meanwhile there's loads of women having healthy and heated debates on a range of subjects who manage to disagree just fine.

I know a trans person very well, whose company I enjoy and whose wellbeing I care about very deeply.

And I still think self ID is a threat to the rights of natal women. I am very happy to support trans rights, but not if they bugger up the chances of my not-trans niece of making it to the top in martial arts because she has to spar with male-bodied people. Rights do conflict here: the right of transwomen to enjoy sport, and the right of my niece and women like her to compete on a level playing field.

I think Bertrand is right about third spaces. I don't see another viable solution to this one.

I did actually contemplate solving the surname conundrum by researching as far up my female line as I could and taking that surname, but in the end I decided that the name I had been known by all my life would have to do.

Oops never mind... I see some have crept out of said bubble for the evening.

The transphobes on here are pretty much left to it on their own little feminism board bubble where they all congratulate each other on their superior opinions, no one can be bothered to debate with them anymore because its boring and exhausting. You just end up getting hounded for daring to say what is being widely accepted in the real world so it’s actually quite refreshing to see on here people share their views without certain Jack Russells on acid biting at everyone’s ankles.

And yet here you are, doing the Jackrussel nipping.

Ok-I suppose I have to give up. @Pinkblueberry - can you explain what was transphobic about that post?

@Pinkblueberry you never answered the question about what rights you don't believe trans people have.

All you have done is what so many have done before you, which is point and says 'transphobes' without actually engaging.

It's tedious now to be honest.

For me I have shied away from a lot of feminist heavy debate because it almost feels like I'm an outsider, there are some posters who are very recognisable and it's almost like a online group-meeting for them, I'm not saying that's their fault! More of a lack of nerve on my part to enter into the fray.

I do think that healthy debate is dying a death in general and so more and more people resort to insults and condescension if you happen to disagree with them, if you make the stupid mistake of going against the grain on a thread you can even be subjected to a pile on for being the 'wrong' type of feminist (if that makes any sense?) so I tend to shy away from the topics in case I get on the wrong side of it again.

I think a lot of what people may think of feminists on Mumsnet is only lead by the strongest examples sometimes, in that, many level headed, intelligent and well-meaning posters who consider themselves feminists won't immediately register to other readers as feminists, but those who are prone to more provocative responses in a thread are easily remembered.

I could be completely wrong of course, but that's my opinion on the matter.

I don’t think that’s true at all. A male child carries his fathers name (traditionally in the uk), just as a female one does. Of course that’s in the Christian west, Muslim women don’t change their names.

Read in conjunction with your post about father's name or husband's name, obviously you feel that at some point the male child's surname starts being his. Or you would've referred to it as taking your FILs name not your husband's. Why doesn't the female child's also become hers at some point, like with the male?

I think it's because every thread becomes a trans bashing thread. It's depressing. If you're not part of the anti-trans lobby, then you get called some pretty vile names. Other issues get ignored too. So you can't have a discussion about other feminist topics

Sadly, @Bibijayne, I think that's true

I would dive in to the feminsit board if you have something to say, People are usually respectful , and I have found the range of opinions really useful and often more thought through, greater depth

...usually respectful...when there has been a lot of very dubious activity it makes people defensive and when the moderators aren't at full strength that's when the warfare can start

Oh for fuck sake! Drag it right back their, so we can play victimitis again. 🤷‍♀️

That wasn’t directed at you, MIdgebabe.

@RedderAndRedder

Isn't it peculiarly masochistic/ soul destroying to haunt the transphobic halls of segments of Mumsnet when you have a trans chi,d?

@Pinkblueberry you never answered the question about what rights you don't believe trans people have.

Well no - I didn’t realised you were waiting for me to. When was I asked about that? (If I was it’s a bit random, I haven’t mentioned anything about trans rights so far) I think maybe you’re talking to the wrong person... but by all means you could randomly tell me about what rights you think they do or don’t have if you want a conversation starter...

walks out of thread screaming