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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How anyone can vote Tory?

537 replies

Stella8686 · 28/11/2019 23:40

After seeing some pro labour and pro conservatives posts recently I am genuinely interested to see what makes someone vote conservative

OTHER THAN

  1. Hard/ quick Brexit
  2. Looking after your own finances
  3. Hatred for Labour/ Corbyn

ABIU to not be able to think of any single other reason to vote conservative?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Trewser · 04/12/2019 19:09

Well who knows how much the NHS needs. I think it needs massive reform. But social care could have an enormous boost, ditto education and it would alleviate the assumption that the 'rich' need to pay for everyone else (if everyone took a tax hit)

ScreamingLadySutch · 05/12/2019 04:36

@Camomila "What do you mean by 'more community' Screaming ?"

that is a very good question.

The State has taken over a lot of functions that the community used to do - and as a result, has hollowed out communities.

Think about it. What used to be the real role of the church, which is still what happens in the strong communities of Africa and the middle east?

The parish used to run welfare. So the priest/Imam/Chief would know exactly who was on hard times, and the community would step in. It was also very personal: they knew who suffered tragedy, who needed a temporary boost, and who was just malingering.

When bureaucracy takes that role, it becomes a faceless 'one size fits all' and introduces the economic forces of 'moral hazard'. All benefits fraud is moral hazard. I don't get outraged at benefits fraud at all. People will always do what is best for them and their family. . Highly enterprising people with a lot of agency, that is what they are. They would be an asset to the economy, and here they are trapped in the bureaucratic welfare system. If the state is going to be so stupid as to refuse to admit how inefficient and wasteful it is, if it is not going to give individuals the right to run their own lives, being taken advantage of is an inevitable consequence. It is ridiculous that people are punished ££ wise for working. No wonder they all go into the black economy - which is up to 20% of our GDP and not contributing to the fiscus. Madness!

The solution would be universal benefits THAT DO NOT ACCOMPANY BABIES and leaving people to make their own decisions and run their own lives. That takes the State and bureaucrats right out of it. Except for a tiny minority who are too stupid or unlucky, who really need to be cared for, most people do this very well.

Similarly the church and charities used to run adoption. Nowadays the State runs it. It takes over 2 years (because of the bureaucratic process) to adopt a baby, with the mother being given rights to change her mind and then get overwhelmed again, the baby gets shunted back and forth at a time when the attachment process is so vital. Larger children - lets not even go there.

The State is NOT the solution.

I remember reading a paper from Stanford University and being completely outraged. It was an admiring study about the European welfare system and HOW CLEVER THE GOVERNMENTS ARE - to pay welfare so cheaply.

The paper said: all European governments have learned that if you tax capital, capital leaves (absolutely true). This damages the economy, so governments leave capital alone.

What they do, is shuttle economically unproductive people into ghettos (housing estates) - and then tax habits.
What are habits? - tobacco. Alcohol. VAT. Fuel. The Lottery.
Who consumes these things the most? - THE POOR

Therefore, the people who pay for welfare are blue collar workers and the low paid, who are taxed disproportionately for what they earn.

Boris Johnson pointed this out in an article when New Labour were busy ruining the UK imposing Social Justice and running up our current astronomical debt

... but of course he is a stupid buffoon (got you all there, didn't we! Remain thoroughly outmanoeuvred in his first 60 days)

If you think the welfare system is just and good, that poorly paid people pay for it? You shouldn't be allowed to vote IMO. The solution is Universal Benefit which costs much more but would give people meaningful control over their own decisions. No more nanny state.

ScreamingLadySutch · 05/12/2019 04:45

Thomas Sowell wrote a very dense book (using census statistics to back up his points), that liberal left projects (the war on poverty, changing the criminal justice system from punishment to rehabilitation, the State undermining the family etc)

has made the Western world worse. There is more poverty, crime, family breakdown etc. And that these Anointed are actually a minority but who have taken over the levers of the state and give themselves disproportionate influence (from the media to the justice system).
They tell the Silent Majority they are bigoted and racist for objecting, and that the solution is MORE of whatever their Vision is. I think Trump, Brexit and gilets jejune are a reaction.

How anyone can vote Tory?
Songsofexperience · 05/12/2019 05:00

'Jejune' is a great epithet for the gilets jaunes.

Stooshie8 · 05/12/2019 06:53

Tax is paid for by people according to the news yesterday. So Corporation Tax is paid for by shareholders (people), pension funds (paid to people), customers of the product produced by the company (people), employees of the company who might lose their jobs if it takes money saving moves.
But people think it is fat cats running big busninesses.
Where I live druggies and mentally ill live in the Housing Assoc properties.
People wont' want to see a fortune spent on these people to fix their lives as the cost is too high.

littlebillie · 05/12/2019 07:07

Screaming very interesting

Jillyhilly · 05/12/2019 07:14

Sowell is a genius. He blows the mind of people on the left because he’s black and came from a pretty impoverished background but is so adamantly against state intervention. It’s a fascinating perspective.

Devereux1 · 05/12/2019 08:37

Trewser
Well who knows how much the NHS needs.

If you don't know how much the NHS needs, how do you know it needs more money?

Milicentbystander72 · 05/12/2019 09:11

Screaming that was fascinating (hoping that doesn't sound sarcastic!).

Camomila · 05/12/2019 09:33

I see what you mean Screaming I'm from Italy where a lot of the safety net the UK state provides is still done by the family and church.

I'm not 100% sure how well it would work in the UK though...
a) much less religious country
b)people more likely to move away from their families
c)Bigger cities in the UK - Italy has more large villages/medium towns and only a few big cities (none as big as London!)
d)rich-poor gap is bigger in the UK.

IMO relying on the community will only make inequality worse...people that are already poor usually have less time and energy to volunteer and help out in the community. If all your family is all as badly off as you there isn't going to be anyone with £500 to lend you when your car breaks etc.

Stooshie8 · 05/12/2019 12:36

Everywhere there is charity needs - Tesco gives me a plastic token which I can put into a needy project of my choice box - it pisses me off - if Tesco wants to give, donate a bit of the CEO's bonus FGS. If I want to give I can set up a DD to a charity- I don't need Tesco's assistance.
My exercise class had a fund raiser for refugees recently.i turn on the radio and it is about racism in Sri Lanka. Bad story after bad story. Despite here in U.K. we are more comfortably off than we've ever been.
I read that there is a Marxist plot -constantly bombard us with depressing tales about life today- eventually we are all beaten down into believing our world is shit so it opens a path for a not too far in the future mArxist or communist takeover . Certainly there is never good news about anything.

Stooshie8 · 05/12/2019 12:57

The other thing mentioned in Screaming Ladies post - divide and conquer , millennials against baby boomer, women against errrr everyone,black, brown, white against whatever you're not. It's mad, every millennial must have a boomer GP. Many women have sons/ husbands - if you don't like other races move to where there's only yours I'm sure it's possible if you wanted to. All stop complaining!!!!!!
Douglas Murray covers some of these in the Madness of Crowds

mond4321 · 05/12/2019 16:34

You ask why you should vote Tory. I have also considered that question quite a lot recently. I’m a fan of the old Labour party under Brown and Blair but not of the current one.
My thoughts for what they’re worth are that the Tories stand for pretty much keeping things as is and “business as usual” (obviously not very exciting or inspirational!). The current Labour party stand for radical change and is controlled by Marxist-Lenisinists whose philosophy has been shown time and again not to work (the best example being Russia from 1917-1991). The current Labour Party are dangerous because their spending plans are extravagant and require not just lots of taxation but also lost of borrowing (the plans have been criticised by the IMF as unaffordable). I have children and I don’t want them being saddled with lots of additional debt which they’ll have to pay back for many years due to unwise and extravagant spending.
I think that Corbyn has proven himself on many occasions to be no friend of Britain. He has visit the graves of terrorists, has not dealt with racism in his own party, says terrorists should not serve their full prison terms, support for the horrible dictator Maduro in Venezuala (Corbyn called him to congratulate him on winning a (rigged) election), and proposes, if elected, to teach schoolchildren about how evil Britain was in the past. I want to PM who will stand up for us on the international stage. Is someone with this record capable of that?
A quick history lesson. The Nazis won power in 1933 with a minority share of the German vote (think it was about 32%). It was felt their extremism could be contained by the bigger parties. Many in Germany in 1933 might have felt “why should I vote for the [mainstream alternative party to the Nazis]” exactly as you do now. The answer was clear within a few years after a world war, genocide and millions of unnecessary deaths. I’m clearly not saying that will happen here, but it’s not impossible for very bad and unpredictable things to happen as a result of voting in “radical” parties and I do think the current Labour Party is a radical party. So the much safer option is to not vote or to vote for someone else (not the Lib Dems as they have said they’d be a coalition partner for Corbyn if necessary) and then to work to pull the Labour Party back to the centre ground and out for the hands of extremists. Even Blair has said of the current radical Labour party “the problem with revolutions is never how they begin but how they end.” I think the Labour Party needs to be reconstructed along the lines of the Blair years.
It’s of interest that there are now four (I think it’s four?) Labour MPs saying that voters should vote for the Tories. That’s quite something and I don’t see many Tory MPs suggesting people vote Labour! Even the New Statesman (is now advising people to vote Tory). I might not vote Tory, but I’ll definitely not vote for Labour.

Alsohuman · 05/12/2019 17:14

Why on earth should anyone get pissed off about being given a free token to vote for which charity Tesco donates to? That defies logic.

We’re not better off in the UK than we’ve ever been. Our world is shit for an awful lot of its inhabitants, what would be shocking would be if news was censored so we were oblivious to that shit.

And, while there are erstwhile Labour MPs advocating voting Tory, there are also Tory grandees advocating voting LibDem.

CendrillonSings · 05/12/2019 17:24

And, while there are erstwhile Labour MPs advocating voting Tory, there are also Tory grandees advocating voting LibDem.

Not the same thing at all - about 5 former Labour MPs are advocating a Tory vote this time, whereas 0 former Tory MPs are advocating a Labour vote.

That level of direct switching between the main parties is virtually unheard of - those ex-Labour MPs are taking a principled stand against the antisemitism and economic insanity of Corbyn’s Labour.

Alsohuman · 05/12/2019 17:36

those ex-Labour MPs are taking a principled stand against the antisemitism and economic insanity of Corbyn’s Labour

They wouldn’t know principle if they fell over it. One’s now on the Tory payroll, one got deselected for sexual misconduct, and one stood down after campaigning for Brexit. I can’t find any evidence of a fourth.

sallyedmondson · 05/12/2019 17:45

confessions of teenage drama queen

What a ridiculous statement. Have you been taking lessons from Trump?

JaneyCartmel · 05/12/2019 17:55

@ScreamingLadySutch

Very interesting.

Stella8686 · 08/12/2019 00:01

@Stooshie8

Tesco gives me a plastic token which I can put into a needy project of my choice box - it pisses me off -

Then in your next post you tell everyone to stop complaining!!!

What is it that bothers you about people in society receiving help?

Have you got a case of the

'What about me....'

You sound like someone who resents people receiving 'handouts' from 'your hard earned tax' or free from charities

Because middle class, middle aged, right wing tories never get any 'freebie handouts'

You are living in a bubble because you don't want to realise that actually you just have an ugly selfish heart

Some people do need help and believe it or not it's not because they are lazy scrounges

OP posts:
Stooshie8 · 08/12/2019 07:22

I think the state should be giving help not Tesco tokens.
Tesco got into our town by promising loads of jobs. The auto tills have got rid of the jobs as they make more money cutting staff then we are expected to give pence for some cause.
Fill the food bank donations.
State should be paying imv.

Gribbie · 08/12/2019 07:57

Has this been discussed yet? Sr diplomat resignation letter:

”I have been increasingly dismayed by the way in which our political leaders have tried to deliver Brexit, with reluctance to address honestly, even with our own citizens, the challenges and trade-offs which Brexit involves; the use of misleading or disingenuous arguments about the implications of the various options before us; and some behaviour towards our institutions, which, were it happening in another country, we would almost certainly as diplomats have received instructions to register our concern," she wrote in her letter, dated December 3.

"It makes our job to promote democracy and the rule of law that much harder, if we are not seen to be upholding these core values at home."

edition.cnn.com/2019/12/06/uk/top-british-diplomat-quits-brexit-intl/index.html

Gribbie · 08/12/2019 08:03

The Conservatives are investigating three parliamentary candidates over antisemitism and are facing calls to suspend them before the election.
Sally-Ann Hart, standing in the Tory marginal seat of Hastings, shared a video with an image implying that the billionaire George Soros, who is Jewish, controls the EU, and she also liked a Nazi slogan on Facebook.
Lee Anderson, standing for the Conservatives in Labour-held Ashfield, is an active member of Ashfield Backs Boris, a Facebook group where Soros conspiracy theories have been promoted and which includes supporters of the far-right activist Tommy Robinson.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/07/tories-investigate-three-candidates-over-alleged-antisemitism

Gribbie · 08/12/2019 08:05

As for having the church doing more instead of the state - given their track record of discrimination & abuse - no thanks. Although a lot of the food banks are being run by/in churches, I thanks them for that.

malificent7 · 08/12/2019 08:08

I guess i'm a proper old svhool legtie as i don't really see the point of a state if they don't take care of the people.
If there is no state then we are left with darwinism which tbh is terrifying..

malificent7 · 08/12/2019 08:08

Leftie

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