How anyone can vote Tory?

[Stella8686]

After seeing some pro labour and pro conservatives posts recently I am genuinely interested to see what makes someone vote conservative

OTHER THAN

1. Hard/ quick Brexit
2. Looking after your own finances
3. Hatred for Labour/ Corbyn

ABIU to not be able to think of any single other reason to vote conservative?

[Spinderellacutituponetime]

@Alsohuman sorry! wrong post.

[Spinderellacutituponetime]

@Clavinova Erm...yes. Some of them are prominent. Some of them are retired ?!!) Does that negate their view or intelligence...? Do you want me to find 126 Tory economists? You are scrabbling around....

[Spinderellacutituponetime]

@RicePuffs very well said. Obviously even when you have a very healthy income losing £60 a year contributing to a better society must seem very hard indeed.

[Xenia]

Rice, the extra 5% tax for those on £80k year and over is £7500 for those on £150k. It is quite substantial and probably only the start. Labour are likely to introduce capital taxes on the value of equity in people's homes They had proposed a land tax fairly recently labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/12081_19-Land-for-the-Many.pdf.

[RicePuffs]

Xenia, yes, a bit more substantial on those earning £150,000 (still would not work out as half of their income) but as I shared those on £81,000 it’s v little and on £110,000 it’s £1500. The sick and disabled have had bigger cuts proportionally these last ten years and most have much less money.

Land and real estate value has soared and is the biggest driver of the huge difference in wealth in the population. I read 0.3% of the population own 69% of UK land, much of it hereditary. Labour’s proposals in the link you gave me are on land prices and their aim is to stabilise house prices and reduce property speculation which will benefit many long term. Rising land and property values have diverted investment and lending away from more productive uses, with banks in particular increasing the proportion of their overall lending going into real estate. Also the land tax would be a progressive tax like income tax is. Even staunch Conservative Winston Churchill supported the idea of a land tax, he said “land monopolists” — as Churchill dubbed them — get richer not through their own efforts, but that of others.

[Coppersulphate]

I have already voted Tory because I do not want:

Jeremy Corbyn as PM because he supports terrorist organisations like Hezbollah, Hamas and the IRA

He will put a whole range of taxes up for ordinary people like me

He will bankrupt the country

We will be back to flying pickets

Diane Abbot is supposedly all for the masses but sent her son to a posh, expensive private school in London ( local schools good enough for everyone else's kids but not hers)

Shami Chakrabati's son is at the exclusive £30,000 a year Dulwich College ( definitely for the few and not the many)

They are all
Militant Tendency

We will be like Venezuela

[RicePuffs]

We will be like Venezuela

Please do a bit of reading. It’s such a nonsensical statement to make. The spending plans of Labour would put us in the middle of developed world economies, just a bit above Germany and below France. These economies are not like Venezuela. Our economy is sluggish and wages are still lower than pre global crash, Tories economic policies have not worked for most of the population since the crash.

[Trewser]

I think its indefensible that people like Shami and DA send their children to private schools.

[RicePuffs]

when New Labour were busy ruining the UK imposing Social Justice and running up our current astronomical debt

I am afraid I can’t take anyone seriously who makes out new Labour were solely responsible for the increase in national debt in 2008. There was a global recession and developed countries worldwide pumped money into the financial system to save it from collapse. Conservatives would have done exactly the same had they been in power at the time. Also they were not arguing in opposition for better banking regulation and in the 2005 general election their spending plans were v similar to Labour.

There is an argument that our global financial system is out of kilter and the UK economy relies heavily on it but it’s risible to blame the global recession And subsequent increase in national debt on Labour.

In the first few years of power Labour ran surplus deficits which is rare, eg only a few years has that happened since the 2WW, 2 periods under Labour and one year only under Thatcher. Some argue Labour’s annual deficits in the few years before the global crash were not helpful but they weren’t unusually high and public services needed some money after being underfunded for years by Thatcher.

[RicePuffs]

My God why does everyone fail to grasp this. We were running a massive deficit under labour (spending more than tax revenues) the tories got this overspending down but it takes time. If we are spending more than we are getting in tax debt will always rise. If you wanted debt to be reduced quickly then cuts/tax rises would have to be much greater so we are running a surplus! If anyone says debt has increased under tories without understanding I think I will bloody scream. Unless the poster is saying tax should be increased much more or spending cut much harder!!

Labour were not running massive annual deficits for years. The annual deficit shot up after the global crash and as I write above that cannot be blamed all on Labour, see my reasons why above. As I said above too, the first few years of power Labour ran surplus deficits which is rare, eg only a few years has that happened since the 2WW, 2 periods under Labour and one year only under Thatcher. Some argue Labour’s annual deficits in the few years before the global crash were not helpful but they weren’t unusually high, about 3.6% of GDP and public services needed some money after being underfunded for years by Thatcher.

As for saying you are exasperated that people don’t understand why the national debit went up these last ten years under the coalition and then a Conservatives, it is true that the national debt will increase whilst there are annual budget deficits but the argument is the increase in borrowing was still fairly high for a party that claim (falsely) they have a better track record of running the economy.

Many economises now argue Osborne’s austerity cuts between 2010 and 2012 were too severe and too soon after the global crash. USA enjoyed better economic growth since the crash. Obama did not impose such severe austerity after the crash and according to Krugman the more severe the austerity (Greece he says was in a different position) at the start the slower the economic growth. He writes, ‘Since the global turn to austerity in 2010, every country that introduced significant austerity has seen its economy suffer, with the depth of the suffering closely related to the harshness of the austerity. In late 2012, the IMF’s chief economist, Olivier Blanchard, went so far as to issue what amounted to a mea culpa: although his organisation never bought into the notion that austerity would actually boost economic growth, the IMF now believes that it massively understated the damage that spending cuts inflict on a weak economy.”

If Osborne’s plans were effective, you would expect to have seen by now annual surplus budgets which would start to pay down some of the increased national debt since the banks bailout in 2009 - which actually wasn’t as high as other periods since the 2WW and certainly not at crisis levels. Sure the debt should eventually be paid down but as said above many argue now Osborne attempted to do it too soon causing economic growth to be low. So the country has experienced severe austerity and a lot of misery and it hasn’t even helped to boost the economy.

[HotWaterBottleAndABottleOfWine]

Well....there seem to be a great many ladies in theor 60s, 70s and 80s who are irrationally besotted with Boris! (I don't get it, but maybe I'll see the light in a few years!)

[Cam77]

Johnson refusing to look at picture of four year old child on hospital floor when confronted by ITV reporter. Proceeds to pocket the reporters phone(!) while mouthing empty platitudes. What a guy.
Here’s the link but I’m sure you’ll see it on the news anyways. Johnson to a T: an insincere, uncaring, bullshitter out off number one. What a guy.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-nhs-leeds-hospital-floor-jack-williment-phone-photo-a9239041.html

[RicePuffs]

and to add to my comment above, Johnson now wants to take us out on a hard Brexit which a majority of economic reports including government’s own forecast there being £79 billion less a year for the public purse so more economic misery. The belief that Conservatives are better stewards of the economy doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

[BlackCatFan]

"We will be like Venezuela"

[Spinderellacutituponetime]

'
We will be like Venezuala' is the funniest thing I have read in a long time.

[BlackCatFan]

We will only be like Venezuela if we have a no deal Brexit.

[Clavinova]

Spinderellacutituponetime
Labour economists
Just seen your post.

In fact, many of the 'economists' on the list are actually university lecturers/professors.

Some of them are retired?!!

Approximately (I counted quickly) twenty five are retired (emeritus).

There are ten academics associated with the University of Oxford - five are emeritus - wiki tells me the ages of four - 73, 79, 81 and 83.
Another is a visiting scholar, several associates and one professor of geography.

On the other hand, 15 academics are associated with the University of Greenwich, currently ranked 67th in the UK for economics. WHICH University Guide tells me that the most popular A-Levels studied (and grade achieved) by current economics students at Greenwich are: Economics C, Mathematics D and Business Studies B.

The Cambridge academic mentioned earlier completed an online questionnaire (she tweets on her university page) - her result:

"Got ‘orthodox Marxism’ too! :)"
She was replying to a tweet;
"I got "orthodox Marxism", which surely must be the best one to get."

[RicePuffs]

Clavinova, I see you are still trying to maintain that because not all 187 economists are from Oxbridge (though if you look at the list there are many from both Oxford and Cambridge - I highly doubt there are 187 oxbridge economists) that their academic work and views have little credential? There are plenty economists on the list from red brick universities too. The full list is here for anyone who wishes to look for themselves www.thelondoneconomic.com/business-economics/labour-deserves-to-form-the-next-government-leading-economists-tell-the-ft/26/11/

By all means engage with their arguments but trying to discredit them due to their age and not every single one from Oxbridge is poor.

[Spinderellacutituponetime]

@Clavinova Repeating your post it isn't going to help. Try reading @RicePuffs posts, it may help you.

[Coppersulphate]

Diane Abbot, that bastion of the left and the left behind.....sent her son to an exclusive, expensive private school in London.

"For the few not the many"

[Coppersulphate]

And Shami Chakrabati is the same.
Son at Dulwich College, one of the most expensive schools in the country. It is where Nigel Farage went

Is this ok with all you Momentum lot?

Support for the working class is ok as long as it is only words.

[nicky7654]

All Labour and Conservative MPs need sacking as they are both Parties only in it for themselves. Corbyn has blood on his hands and would allow Sharia Law as he kisses their arses and wants to make GB a Middle Eastern Country. As for Conservative they are doing so many cutbacks it's making people's lives a misery! Stop sending Millions across the water (per week) and plough the money into services that are on their knees. Unfortunately nothing will change unless we stand together and start a new Party!!!!

[RicePuffs]

I think it’s a fair to criticise Abbott and Chakarabati for sending their children to private school whilst championing widening state education. However, I am not going to suddenly jettison my support of social democratic policies because of the decision of these two.

[rhubarbcrumbles]

We will only be like Venezuela if we have a no deal Brexit.

Best brush up on your Spanish then....

[Clavinova]

RicePuffs
not all 187 economists

You link says, "163 leading economists" - which is factually incorrect of course because approximately 40 work for ex polys/FEs/OU.

there are many from both Oxford and Cambridge
10 from Oxford - 5 of them in their 70s and 80s.

9 from Cambridge - 7 of whom appear to be foreign nationals.
In fact, over half of the 163 academics appear to be foreign nationals - quite a few from Latin America if we are talking about Venezuela.