AIBU to cancel holiday for DD agreed 26?

[Felinefancier]

DD, 26 is trying to pursue a career in music. As a result she has never held a conventional job for long, has little money and has lived on and off in properties that I own. I charge her less than market rent but she often falls behind on payment and has in the past said that since I am financially secure, I should let her live rent free. Through contacts with a friend of mine I got her well paid job but she left after 3 weeks. She suffers from depression. I have tried to help but she frequently lashes out at me verbally and I'm finding it very stressful.

I popped in to see her about a month ago because she was down. She exploded said that I was manipulative by turning up unannounced and asked me to give her space. She moved out and did not tell me where she was going. I still don't know where she is living. I have flights booked to see friends over New Year. This morning I messaged her to ask if she still wanted to come. She called me back and said my messaging of her was manipulative and asking for apologies for previous manipulative behaviour on my part.

However I'm damned if I do damned if I don't. If I don't contact her she tells me I am heartless and uncaring and if I do contact her she tells me I'm manipulating her. I now want to cancel the trip as I know it is going to be unpleasant to have her around.

AIBU

Has she given examples of the abuse she believes she suffered?

You are probably going to find out she is taking drugs, her behaviour would support that op. I feel for you going through this. Do you a dp or a good friend to talk to? I hope you have some RL support.

Her depression is no excuse for her vile behaviour. As an adult she knows right from wrong and if she can't behave in the right manner then you have every right to disconnect the communication and not put up with it.

It does sound like you want a good healthy relationship with her though. I would suggest you speak to her about trying some therapy together to help your bond. Maybe if she heard some of the emotional baggage you have been carrying around for year due to your own childhood it would help her understand some of her childhood. You would need to find a therapist you haven't seen before so your DD doesn't think she's on your side. Its worth a try.

@Considermesometimes
get some family therapy in place
I tried to get family therapy in place but they could never get their act together to turn up at the therapists office. So I went by myself.

I found your post really helpful particularly where you point out that it wasn't my fault and it wasn't theirs either.

So many posters try to apportion blame but really it's about getting on with living our best lives in in a difficult world.

I am not helping her by allowing her to abuse me.

I grew up in a household without healthy boundaries so I found it difficult to to put boundaries in place with my own children but I'm working hard on this now.

Look at drama triangles...you are stuck as rescuer and she is stuck ad victim.

One of you needs to step outside of this and view it with a clear, neutral mind.

Your daughter knows how to play you and probably feels very hard done by because you aren't taking caring of her and letting her live the easy life. I'm sorry but she cannot have got depression at 18 months....memories at that age are basically overwritten.
She is using this to mask what I'm guessing will be abandonment by her father and rejection at his lack of contact.

Because she cannot show this frustration to him, she is projecting it onto the only close person she has which is you.

I would tell her you love her and will support her but you cannot continue to be treated this way. Set your boundaries and hopefully in time she will start to grow up a bit and realise the world doesn't revolve around her

@Wild123

Maybe if she heard some of the emotional baggage you have been carrying around for year due to your own childhood

I have told my DD's about some of my emotional baggage. Among other things I joined a creative writing class and I'm writing short stories. DD's have read some of the stories and really sympathised.

Also just to follow on from my previous post.

I'm only a bit older than your daughter and have been away from since 18. I have a son and own my own home with my husband.
I would never dream of treating my mum in the way your daughter is doing to you.

She needs to stop acting like a spoilt brat and grow up

I tried to get family therapy in place but they could never get their act together to turn up at the therapists office. So I went by myself.

Get in touch with Prof Tanya Byron or the Tavistock Centre in London who are experts with all of this. You have money, your have time for a holiday, so you have time to prioritise getting help even if it means a 3 hr train ride to London. If you are really concerned about your DD committing suicide, you need professional help, not a forum.

It sounds as if your DD has an issue with 'control'- when she accuses you of manipulation, she means control. This is a double edged sword- she on the one hand may feel she has been harshly over-controlled in the past and you have been to much in her life BUT at the same time she knows deep down she finds it hard to live independently and support herself which is perhaps why she is depressed because she has all the internal conflict of wanting to be an adult but at the same time really enjoying the safety net you provide. it's all muddled up in her head.
The music 'dream' is just that- a dream. it's avoiding reality.

When she accused you of 'manipulating her' with reduced rent- what did you say? Did you say 'Fine, I'll charge you the full amount if that is what you want.'

Do you actually challenge her thinking on anything?

Go and get some expert advice.

@fromcitytocountry

Look at drama triangles...you are stuck as rescuer and she is stuck ad victim

Absolutely. I've read up on drama triangles and the first time I read it I immediately identified myself as the Rescuer.

In my childhood my mother was the victim and my father was the perpetrator. I rescued my mother from him many times even at risk of my own life.

It's very hard to get out of being a Rescuer when that's all you have ever known, but I can assure you I have been working on it for years and will continue to do so.

I have ended dysfunctional friendships and dysfunctional relationships.

I don't want to end my relationship with my daughter although I acknowledge a previous post that going no contact may be an option.

I'm trying to plough through and do the difficult work of setting up boundaries. When the other person makes veiled threats of suicide if you don't do what they want it's very very hard to hold your ground.

Go without her you’ll have a better time

I'm trying to plough through and do the difficult work of setting up boundaries. When the other person makes veiled threats of suicide if you don't do what they want it's very very hard to hold your ground.

so go and get professional help.

You want people here to help you but when I suggest names and organisations who are experts, you ignore that. Why? If you carry on doing the same things without an outside person to guide you, the outcome will be the same.

@JinglingHellsBells

If you are really concerned about your DD committing suicide, you need professional help, not a forum.

I do not think she is planning to commit suicide I think the suicidal talk is really about depression..

I have pointed out that I have paid for family therapy in the past but DD didn't turn up.

I don't think she's any more likely to turn up to a session in London.

You want people here to help you but when I suggest names and organisations who are experts, you ignore that. Why? If you carry on doing the same things without an outside person to guide you, the outcome will be the same.

I do have an outside person to guide me I am currently seeing and NHS psychotherapist. I can't force DD to attend sessions.

I have read all of your posts on this thread Feline. You did your best when bringing up your daughters, you can’t change the past. Your daughter is abusing you. She is 26, she should be supporting herself financially. Whatever you do will be wrong in her opinion, so let her get on with her life, make her own mistakes and get herself out of her own problems. You have done everything you can.
Concentrate on your life, 26 years old is an adult.

*When she accused you of 'manipulating her' with reduced rent- what did you say? Did you say 'Fine, I'll charge you the full amount if that is what you want.'

Do you actually challenge her thinking on anything?*

Yes I do and quite often she she comes back and apologises a few days later. The trouble is the apologies don't mean anything if the behaviour continues.

@Bananasandchocolatecustard
I have read all of your posts on this thread Feline. You did your best when bringing up your daughters, you can’t change the past. Your daughter is abusing you. She is 26, she should be supporting herself financially. Whatever you do will be wrong in her opinion, so let her get on with her life, make her own mistakes and get herself out of her own problems. You have done everything you can.
Concentrate on your life, 26 years old is an adult.

Oh God, thank you!

Op maybe your DD is a spoilt brat who is manipulating you, or maybe she has serious mental health issues, or possibly it's a combination of both. If I was in your shoes and I was comfortable financially (no idea if you are) i would allow her to live in the property for free, that way I would feel she has a roof over her head and is safe at least. Then I would take a massive step back from her. No more getting jobs for her or involvement in her life, I would just let her know that I was there if she needed me and leave it at that. Also I would go to new York without her.

Thing is maybe she did feel unloved by OP, none of us know op personally so we don’t know what kind of mother she was.

Yes the daughter could be a spoilt brat being horrid to her mum but just as equally she could of grown up a little girl that felt no love from her mum and now suffers with her metal health. We just don’t know reading this so really I don’t think it’s fair for any of us to speculate.

Yes 26 is an adult but we are talking about one with mental health issues, the way some on here talk about mental health I hope no one of there family ever suffers.

In your position OP I would let her live in one of my properties rent free as then I’d at least know she had a safe roof over her head, tell her I’d always be there if she wants me and I’d step back.
No more getting her jobs
No more trying to force her to get help for depression
No more “popping” in
No more booking holidays

Maybe some space is just what she needs here

I agree with Jingle . I appreciate OP that you are seeing a therapist but whether that's a new development or whether they're the wrong therapist for you, they don't seem to be helping you to draw firm boundaries, reset the relationships or to break the cycle of pulling close and pushing away that you are constantly enacting with your DDs. You're an active part of that cycle, not a beleaguered victim.

You use money to show your love (have you read about the five love languages?) but it does also create an imbalance and indebtedness. The NY trip is a perfect example. Your DD regularly asks for space. You use money to pay for a trip and pull both your DDs closer. DD26 gets annoyed/upset - you consider pulling away and taking away the trip.
DD24 asks to stay. You let her come to stay then pull away and tell her to go back to her flatshare. There is a deep-seated manipulation across all the relationships involved. It's understandable given everything you and your DDs have experienced but you need a clear-eyed appreciation of it if you hope to move on.

Sounds like a spoilt brat who knows your weakness/past and how to manipulate you. They need professional help.

Judging by your examples of when she calls you manipulative I think she needs to look at a dictionary! Tell her she's perfectly free to move out of the manipulative house and say no when offered the manipulative car. She needs to start taking responsibility for herself.

I do not think she is planning to commit suicide I think the suicidal talk is really about depression..
@Felinefancier
You did mention the threat of suicide and how it influences your behaviour, several times. Either it does, or it doesn't. You can't use it as a 'reason' one minute then deny it the next. Muddled thinking.

I have pointed out that I have paid for family therapy in the past but DD didn't turn up.

I did not only suggest family therapy- in fact my posts made it clear - or should have- that the therapy was for you! You need help to manage this issue. I'd not for a moment expect your DD to go to therapy with you. It would be another example of mum telling her/ controlling her . Maybe in time you could attend as a family. But it's you who needs help.

You know that what you are doing now is not breaking the cycle. You need support and clarity around your own behaviour. This is , as another PP said, classic 'push/ pull' and you and your DD are both stuck in it. It's not your fault or hers. But you need an outsider to help. Your own counselling may have helped you recognise your own upbringing and how it's affected you, but it's not addressing the current circs with your daughter. You need an expert in family therapy.

Yes I do and quite often she she comes back and apologises a few days later. The trouble is the apologies don't mean anything if the behaviour continues

But your own behaviour is allowing her to carry on as she does.
That's because you are not being consistent.

You are giving mixed messages to her. You give one moment, then take away the next. Your responses to her are all over the place.

Re this holiday..you have booked it for yourself? Or for you and the younger DD? Fine! If DD 26 wants to come, let her. If she doesn't, go anyway. Don't badger her over it.

You see this is an example of your mixed messages. She behaves badly- is rude to you, moves out of the flat you provide for he, verbally abuses you and then you reward bad behaviour with a 'treat' like a holiday to France. Deep down she knows she doesn't deserve that holiday owing to her bad behaviour, she probably hates herself for how she behaves. But the cycle carries on because you are desperate for her to love you but won't set clear boundaries.

It's all a dreadful muddle, going back years and years, but the bottom line is you need to change your behaviour so she changes hers.

Thought I recognised the name Tanya Byron mentioned upthread. She used to have a tv programme which was like an early version of Supernanny - it was superb ( and wickipedia tells me she is married to someone from The Bill)

She says it stemmed from when she was 18 months old when I split with her father.

What a load of bollocks!

Does she ever take responsibility for her actions, or is everything, everybody else's fault?

She sounds like my youngest son (he's 28). I no longer contact him, and he sends me the occasional ranty, abusive email, which I ignore. Life is much more peaceful now, although of course, I still worry about him.

I think you need to take a step back. Don't contact her, and only reply to her if she's saying she wants to sort things out, and seems genuinely sincere. You've tried to help, but she's throwing it all back in your face, so stop playing her game and leave her to navigate through life on her own. She's not a child any more.