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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To change who I'm voting for based on one news story?

635 replies

ShouldIStayOrShouldIRun · 27/11/2019 12:52

This one ->

www.itv.com/news/2019-11-27/jeremy-corbyn-says-uncensored-documents-show-nhs-is-part-of-toxic-post-brexit-trade-talks-with-us/

I had already decided to vote for the conservatives, mainly because I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of the others who seem hell bent on gleefully ripping up womens rights. I've always voted so abstaining/spoiling wasn't an option.

But after reading/watching the above I think I am going to switch to voting labour. We are a disabled family, and could never afford to pay for healthcare (and I doubt insurance would touch us with a barge pole).

I don't like Momentum/Corbyn really but I'd rather complain and fight for my right to a single sex ward than not be able to use one at all

Re: brexit I voted remain in the last referendum but to be honest just have fatigue about the whole thing, so I'm not basing my vote on any of that. (Though seems a second vote isn't that terrible an idea).

Just posting because I can't see anything on here about this yet and I've gone from feeling quietly confident that Conservatives would win to feeling nervous about it now. Anyone else?

OP posts:
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9
Deathgrip · 28/11/2019 10:22

I never said that.

However, I’ve just posted one example from a very long list of demonstrable outright lies, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t trust a single word they say.

Try this, with each lie fact checked and with evidence
boris-johnson-lies.com

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 28/11/2019 10:25

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Artesia · 28/11/2019 10:27

@ColourMagic all of that may be true, but if the Labour/Lib Dem backed self id proposals come into force, it won’t even be possible to measure such issues any more, as the category of “woman” will no longer exist in any meaningful form. Take away the definition of “woman” and any protections that go with it instantly fall away.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 28/11/2019 10:28

Why can't you admit that JC is just another politician who also makes shit up to win votes.

They all do! Why won't so many Labour supporters acknowledge it, and instead do silly diversionary replies like that one, which I am sure is definitely not biased in any way whatsoever Grin

Boris lies, I think he's an idiot.
Jeremy lies, he's also an idiot.
Jo lies, she's a new idiot.

Putting JC on a perfection pedestal is really weird.

ColourMagic · 28/11/2019 10:33

If Conservative Minister Maria Miller had not blundered into presuming to try to reform the Gender Recognition Act, without thought or consideration for women, without even bothering to consult women, the issue of gender Self ID would not have become a hot political issue.

RibenaMonsoon · 28/11/2019 10:35

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/factcheck-corbyns-nhs-for-sale-claims/?fbclid=IwAR1cnLFQiD_-oGO-Jspc4Sl8c5zqA_p6mKF5kHZpWa1y_eL_3Dk1m9x3XTg

I thought this was an interesting read.
I honestly don't know what to think.

All politicians lie or are selective with the truth to get what they want. Trying to figure out which one is lying the least is the trick..

Maybe we should create a new party.
"The mumsnet middle ground"
Containing policies from both left and right which would benefit everyone but be realistic in what it can deliver. I'd vote for us! Grin

Sinjistalk · 28/11/2019 10:35

YANBU

Personally I can not imagine a scenario where I would ever vote conservative, but I am honestly stunned that ANYONE would vote for Boris Johnson.

I think a lot of people do not understand what life would be like for most of us without the NHS, we don’t know what we have until we are unfortunate enough to need it, ie until we or our loved ones are seriously ill or injured. Unfortunately that time comes for most of us at some point, and I am afraid that if we continue voting conservative people will be shocked to find the care they need will be simply unavailable when they most need it (unless they can pay for it of course, like Boris). I also think many people have no real understanding of how much the NHS has been eroded by the conservatives.

My opinion - if you value your health, have children, elderly parents or relatives or any dependents at all you would be mad to vote conservative. Only vote for Boris if you can guarantee you will never get sick, old or have a life changing accident, or if you can guarantee you can pay the thousands of £’s you would need for medical care should you or your family ever need it.

Speaking from my experience as someone who recently lost a relative after a period of serious illness and as an NHS employee.

ArthurtheCatsHumanSlave · 28/11/2019 10:41

I read the document for myself thanks, I know what it says and it is enough for me to change my vote believe it ir not

That's fine, if that is how you feel. However, I also read the document. Much of it is old, two years old, all it actually says is that the US has requested this, that and the other. Nowhere does it say that anything has been agreed, not even in principle. This document was a preliminary scope for further negotiations.

In my view, NO government of any colour, will fully privatise the NHS. Currently it is 7% supported by private providers, and this has been pretty constant over many years. The drugs cost is also a red herring not backed up by evidence. Canada and the US have a trade deal, Americans fly to Canada to get cheap medication. A trade deal has not meant that Canadians pay more for their medication.

Whattodoabout · 28/11/2019 10:42

Honestly, I’m surprised as a disabled person you would every vote for the Tories given their track record.

ColourMagic · 28/11/2019 10:43

"Why can't you admit that JC is just another politician who also makes shit up to win votes."

An MP who spent their entire career fighting racism in all its forms, including antisemitism, is now all over the papers being accused of antisemitism. But the facts and Corbyn's history don't support that.

'A list of fifty occasions on which Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn stood with Jewish people in the UK and other countries has been published by his supporters.'

The list ... lays out some of Corbyn’s recorded solidarity with Jewish people over a period of more than four decades:

[The list is on the link]

... 'Corbyn has already received extensive support from Orthodox Jewish leaders. Thirty-four leading rabbis signed a letter praising Labour’s “respected leader” and describing attacks on him as “irresponsible”. The letter was attacked as a fake by Corbyn’s critics, who were later forced to withdraw the claim when evidence was revealed by the SKWAWKBOX that they were aware of its authenticity.

A letter by Jewish citizens published by the Sunday Times was similarly attacked.'

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

QuietCrotchgoblins · 28/11/2019 10:47

Not RFTFT but well done op for being open minded. I work on frontline of NHS and I'm devastated by what 10years of the conservatives have done to it.

Post Brexit we are screwed with another conservative government. It will be the end of it and we are sleepwalking into it

Alsohuman · 28/11/2019 10:48

Yet when the party in question is Labour, everything they utter is the gospel truth? Why not apply that same critical thinking to both parties?

Possibly because only one party misleadingly changed the name of its Twitter account, tweeted edited versions of another party’s interview and is consistently failing to put its leader up for scrutiny. That’s just a wild guess of course.

Deathgrip · 28/11/2019 10:50

The Momentum bots have arrived, that's me out!

It’s sad that this is the best you can do when called on your nonsense. Such a ridiculous attempt to stifle debate.

They all do! Why won't so many Labour supporters acknowledge it, and instead do silly diversionary replies like that one, which I am sure is definitely not biased in any way whatsoever

My reply was diversionary? You said “yeah but all politicians lie, a deliberate deflection.

As I said, each of those lies catalogued is fact checked and evidenced, but you seem incapable of reading anything which doesn’t back up your views.

I spent a few years working in Corbyn’s constituency and know many who live there, a couple of whom he’s bent over backwards to help.

I never said he was perfect, no politician is, but responding to legitimate criticism of Johnson with “yeah but Corbyn is bad too” is pathetic.

QuietCrotchgoblins · 28/11/2019 10:52

'What I just can’t work out is why when you see so many doctors, nurses, gps, ambulance drivers, anyone who works in the nhs really, all sign up and practically beg for us to note vote for Tory WHY do we not stop and listen to those who are in the thick of it? The people who keep it running despite severe lack of funding, 40,000 nurse vacancies in England alone, why don’t we trust what they are saying?? How can you dismiss what they are saying??'

@janus Yes!!! I work in frontline NHS and I do not know a single person working in the NHS would ( admit) voting Tory. The distain they have treated doctors with has I imagine impacted even on the more wealthy, traditional voters.

Same with education, look at what they have done to teachers!

QuietCrotchgoblins · 28/11/2019 10:57

My comments 're the NHS being screwed come mainly out of concern for my patients by the way. As a family we could afford health insurance.

I would hate to work somewhere which put profit before people and a lot of the patients see now are hugely struggingly financially with the current 'free' system. They can barely afford the parking. Another sign of 10 years of this government. These are desparate and sad times.

RosieLancs · 28/11/2019 13:25

YANBU You can vote for whoever you want for whatever reason you want.
However, voting conservative to protect women's rights is a little 🧐🧐🧐
There'll be no rights for anyone other than the super rich with them.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 28/11/2019 13:42

However, voting conservative to protect women's rights is a little

And voting Labour (or LibDem) is actively, deliberately, participating in the erasure of women AND their rights as a class. Both parties have committed to that in their manifestos.

So we can look forward to some lovely women's single sex wards full of men in the sparkly perfect Labour-run NHS of the future.

Icantreachthepretzels · 28/11/2019 14:50

However, I also read the document. Much of it is old, two years old,

What this means is that discussions are ongoing. It is a long term plan. They have been discussing the possibility of selling out the NHS for two years. Talks haven't stalled and they haven't stopped. They are working towards an end game, the objective of which has not changed.

Trade talks typically take about 5 years - so get used to documents that aren't minty fresh but still have a bearing on what is going to happen.

Nowhere does it say that anything has been agreed, not even in principle. This document was a preliminary scope for further negotiations.

They cannot agree to anything whilst we are still in the EU. We cannot strike post brexit trade deals until brexit has happened. But rest assured, once it has happened - and we are working on replacing our 70+ lost trade deals simultaneously all alone with very little to offer, and the whole world circling like sharks on a cramping swimmer, we will sign up to whatever anybody asks for. We will be that desperate. And desperation aside - even if we can strike favourable trade deals with smaller countries, we will never have the might to stand up to the U.S and get what we want.
What the U.S say they want of us is exactly what they get. Rather than assuming that these preliminary discussions will be watered down once we get to the real deal - I would assume they will be souped up once we are in a weaker post brexit position with no choice but to agree anything. At the moment the U.S will be trying not to scare us off and make us rethink leaving the EU based on their demands. No need to be coy once brexit is a done deal.

In my view, NO government of any colour, will fully privatise the NHS.

They're not going to sell it off over night, no. We won't wake up on the 14th December to find out that our newly elected PM sold off the NHS as his very first act in office, the day before.
What they will do is starve it of funds and wind it down - allowing countless people to die in the process - and start charging for more things. Prescriptions used to be free across the whole country for everyone. The tories put a stop to that in England and got away with it. They will do something similar again - introduce a small charge on something else. Then they will increase that charge. And then do the same to another thing just like it. And they will get away with it.
Sure we might grumble - but they have a majority and five years in power - there's nothing we can do about it.
Once we're paying for things anyway and the NHS is in an even worse state than it is now, they will start with the NHS bashing - pointing out failures to meet targets, long waits, people dying on trolleys, deaths that happened due to oversight etc etc They won't tell people that this is happening because the NHS is underfunded by them. They will just quietly point out that the NHS is not fit for purpose, that you wouldn't want to be treated in an NHS hospital, you wouldn't want your elderly mother dying on a trolley, that it isn't a good enough service for the British people.
So by the time they start introducing insurance schemes, and sell off more sectors of it to private companies, people will welcome it. Because the NHS doesn't work - and they are being promised that this new scheme will be better.
Reader, it won't be better.

Of course the tories will get away with it, of course it won't be electoral suicide. They are already doing it and people don't believe it. They know they can get away with it because they have been getting away with it. People do not believe that the tories will sell off the NHS - they make some noises about keeping it safe, whilst selling it off in front of your eyes, and people still vote for them. Because people want to believe the lies - that it will be OK - so they don't bother to join up the dots. And we vote in another tory govt.
The tories are laughing at the voters - they despise us all, even if you vote for them, they despise you - they are selling off the NHS, they have been starving it of funds in preparation of that, and people still don't believe it is happening. Of course they will get away with the next step in privatisation - and they know they will get away with it because they always have done in the past

Remember - the tories do not believe in the NHS. They voted multiple times against setting it up and have spent all the time they have been in power since then running it down. They are ideologically opposed to free at the point of care health service. They are the party of laissez faire. And they will take the NHS away from us all because that is what they believe in and they know - from experience - that people won't even notice until it's too late. And when they do notice - they'll still blame labour.

Anyone, who is not a multimillionaire and has even a a shred of self respect should not vote for the tories. They hate you. They use you - but they still hate you.

ArthurtheCatsHumanSlave · 28/11/2019 15:02

Icantreachthepretzels

www.longtermplan.nhs.uk/
www.kingsfund.org.uk/topics/nhs-long-term-plan
fullfact.org/health/NHS-privatisation/

Some reading for you. By the by. The Long Term Plan was drawn up with the input and agreement of interested parties. Doctors, nurses, managers, charities, patient groups, cross party.

Icantreachthepretzels · 28/11/2019 15:10

An NHS long term plan drawn up prior to an election has got absolutely no bearing on what a far right tory majority govt will do once they are elected.
Even without brexit and a US trade deal.

Surely that goes without saying?

It doesn't matter what the NHS says or thinks or advises. It's what Bojo and his cronies do that counts.

America says the NHS is on the table in any trade deal. so it is on the table.

Look at the state the NHS is in after 9 years of tory govt. That is what they have chosen to do. Why would anyone think they will reverse that now? they never needed to start it in the first place.

SunsetBoulevard3 · 28/11/2019 15:18

@Ican'treach

Great post

caringcarer · 28/11/2019 17:32

Have you read the full document because I cannot find it to read? An independent person on Sky news has read whole document and she said it does not say what JC claims. She said document said Americans would love to include NHS but UK had said no. We do know document is almost 2 years old and was out under Mrs May & Dr Fox, crucially before any deal was agreed with EU. Boris has said he categorically rules it out as he has already got deal with EU. It is difficult to know exactly what will happen but there is no evidence Boris has agreed to put NHS on table in deal with USA as this document was before he was PM. However if the NHS is the top priority for you and you believe BJ will sell off NHS to USA then vote against BJ.

caringcarer · 28/11/2019 17:34

Trump is on record on TV in saying he wishes it BJ had made it clear it was not.was on table but

BunsyGirl · 28/11/2019 17:35

We have to get over our love affair with the NHS and put in a system that works. That is not the US system. Funnily enough, when anyone tries to change theirs, the contra argument is that they don’t want our NHS! What we need to do is look at the healthcare systems of other countries that do work and models ours on theirs. However, that is never going to happen as it is too engrained in our psyches. In the meantime, people will suffer whatever government is in charge.

Alsohuman · 28/11/2019 17:41

We do know document is almost 2 years old and was out under Mrs May & Dr Fox, crucially before any deal was agreed with EU

This isn’t true. It contains minutes of a meeting held in August - a month after Johnson became PM.

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