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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To invite Conservative voters to gather here

999 replies

Goddessofgrowth · 25/11/2019 08:38

It’s ‘best of a bad bunch’ in my case but there are three threads petrified of BJ/Tories so wondered if any MN Tories would like to gather here!

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18
woolie34 · 25/11/2019 12:02

@BovaryX "free speech" means you can comment on a public thread. So do you want free speech or not?

PleaseDontLaugh · 25/11/2019 12:03

Jezbollah

@EpicShitDippedBatBiscuit Grin

Goddessofgrowth · 25/11/2019 12:03

Two, I think labour voters are more likely to be either in receipt of benefits or working in the public sector and thus reliant on the government.

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 25/11/2019 12:03

Tony Blair / Gordon Brown are closer politically to Tory Wets than they are to Momentum.

Are you old enough to remember Derek Hatton and Militant Tendency?

scaryteacher · 25/11/2019 12:03

Woolie Here is the full text of the Niqab article. Have read of what is actually said about the right of women to wear what they want.

Ah Denmark, what a country. If any society breathes the spirit of liberty, this is it.

It was only a few weeks ago that I was in Copenhagen for some international conference, and as ever I rose early and went for a run. As I passed through some yuppie zone of warehouse conversions and posh restaurants I saw to my amazement that the Danes had also got up early for exercise – and they were diving stark naked into the bracing waters of the harbour. And I thought to myself – that’s the Danes for you; that’s the spirit of Viking individualism. I mean, we have a climate warmer than Denmark; but even so, would you expect to see Brits disrobing and plunging into the waters of Canary Wharf, or even Greenwich? We are pretty easy-going, but not that easy-going.
"If you wanted to visit a country that seemed on the face of it to embody the principles of JS Mill - that you should be able to do what you want provided you do no harm to others – I would advise you to head for wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen"

Denmark is the only country in Europe, as far as I know, that still devotes a large proportion of its capital city to an anarchist commune, called Christiania, where I remember spending a happy afternoon 25 years ago inhaling the sweet air of freedom. It is the Danes who still hold out against all sorts of EU tyrannies, large and small.

They still chew their lethal carcinogenic tobacco; they still eat their red-dyed frankfurters; they still use the krone rather than the euro; they still refuse to let foreigners buy holiday homes in Jutland; and of course it was the heroic population of Denmark that on that magnificent day in June 1992 stuck two fingers up to the elites of Europe and voted down the Maastricht treaty – and though that revolt was eventually crushed by the European establishment (as indeed, note, they will try to crush all such revolts), that great nej to Maastricht expressed something about the Danish spirit: a genial and happy cussedness and independence.

It is a spirit you see everywhere on the streets of Copenhagen in the veneration for that supreme embodiment of vehicular autonomy, the bicycle. The Danes don’t cycle with their heads down, grimly, in Lycra, swearing at people who get in their way. They wander and weave helmetless down the beautiful boulevards on clapped-out granny bikes, with a culture of cycling in which everyone is treated with courtesy and respect. Yes, if you wanted to visit a country that seemed on the face of it to embody the principles of JS Mill - that you should be able to do what you want provided you do no harm to others – I would advise you to head for wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen.

So I was a bit surprised to see that on August 1 the Danes joined several other European countries – France, Germany, Austria, Belgium – in imposing a ban on the niqab and the burka – those items of Muslim head-gear that obscure the female face. Already a fine of 1000 kroner – about £120 – has been imposed on a 28-year-old woman seen wearing a niqab in a shopping centre in the north eastern town of Horsholm. A scuffle broke out as someone tried to rip it off her head. There have been demonstrations, on both sides of the argument. What has happened, you may ask, to the Danish spirit of live and let live?

If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you. If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree – and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran. I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes; and I thoroughly dislike any attempt by any – invariably male – government to encourage such demonstrations of “modesty”, notably the extraordinary exhortations of President Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya, who has told the men of his country to splat their women with paintballs if they fail to cover their heads.

If a constituent came to my MP’s surgery with her face obscured, I should feel fully entitled – like Jack Straw – to ask her to remove it so that I could talk to her properly. If a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber then ditto: those in authority should be allowed to converse openly with those that they are being asked to instruct. As for individual businesses or branches of government – they should of course be able to enforce a dress code that enables their employees to interact with customers; and that means human beings must be able to see each other’s faces and read their expressions. It’s how we work.

All that seems to me to be sensible. But such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business.

I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. You risk turning people into martyrs, and you risk a general crackdown on any public symbols of religious affiliation, and you may simply make the problem worse. Like a parent confronted by a rebellious teenager determined to wear a spike through her tongue, or a bolt through her nose, you run the risk that by your heavy-handed attempt to ban what you see as a bizarre and unattractive adornment you simply stiffen resistance.

The burka and the niqab were certainly not always part of Islam. In Britain today there is only a tiny, tiny minority of women who wear these odd bits of headgear. One day, I am sure, they will go.

The Danes swim starkers in the heart of Copenhagen. If The Killing is to be believed, their female detectives wear Faroe sweaters on duty, as is their sovereign right. If Danish women really want to cover their faces, then it seems a bit extreme – all the caveats above understood – to stop them under all circumstances. I don’t propose we follow suit. A total ban is not the answer.

Trewser · 25/11/2019 12:05

My hope is that his majority will massively reduce...enough to send a clear message to the Govt that people are pissed off

This is the last thing I want.

BovaryX · 25/11/2019 12:06

Woolie, this was directed at Conservative voters. But hey. Fill yer boots. Because I can guarantee you that your insult laden contribution to this has made Conservatives and swing voters even more determined to keep your team out of Downing Street. Keep going. Your a Conservative recruitment campaign

woolie34 · 25/11/2019 12:06

@scaryteacher once again, the only articles I can find to defend your fears are right wing newspapers with no real evidence. Sorry, I really have tried to look objectively and still willing to look at other sources you can show me.

EntropyRising · 25/11/2019 12:07

I'm glad that writers like Boris Johnson exist. Long may it live.

Alsohuman · 25/11/2019 12:08

If you looked at me on paper you’d say typical Tory voting stereotype. Retired, both on good occupational pensions, mortgage paid off, living in a reasonably affluent Tory stronghold. Couldn’t be bluer, right?

The reasons I don’t and never would vote that way are I don’t want Brexit in any form, even in our well heeled community there’s a foodbank and that’s an absolute disgrace, and I know from working in it, the shag order the NHS is in and no Conservative government has ever improved it. When a former Tory PM says the NHS isn’t safe with them, we should listen.

woolie34 · 25/11/2019 12:09

@BovaryX as far as I'm aware I haven't thrown insults at anyone. I think I said tories are uncompassionate, so I'm sorry for that one. I've been insulted quite a bit on here though. Lol. But that's ok, I understand politics at the moment are making everyone tense.

scaryteacher · 25/11/2019 12:10

SalrycLuxx If Corbyn gets in, other allies involved in the Five Eyes have threatened our access to this network.

I though we were losing access anyway in a hard Brexit?

What has the EU got to do with the Five Eyes? We are the only EU member state who is in the Five Eyes (why do you think they want Brexit reversed...they gain from our membership of it). The Five Eyes are UK/NZ/CAN/AUS/US. It's been going since 1941, so just a tad ahead of NATO and well before the ECSC was formed.

woolie34 · 25/11/2019 12:11

@BuzzShitbagBobbly I'm not scared of trans people that I recognize as women sharing my public spaces. I'd rather I didn't have to share my space with bigots and racists, but I'm not making a fuss about that.

Goddessofgrowth · 25/11/2019 12:12

You can vote for whoever you want, also

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EffervescentElephant · 25/11/2019 12:13

@woolie34 - absolutely agree. My children will, hopefully, go to university anyway but my heart breaks thinking of all the talent, new inventions, new medicines, new music, new art and new literature that we are losing on with this destruction of education and culture.

The expression used to be "panem et circenses" but now even the 'panem' but is being cut out and people still believe in the Conservative discourse based on "circuses" alone.... I asked in my first post on this thread - why do working class people on benefit vote Conservative?

if I, an affluent high-rate taxpayer can see that it benefits of Labour surely those less financially fortunate should also be similarly inclined?

I can understand people such as Richard Branson voting Tory - that's only fair for the super-rich to have a party - but for everyone else? What is the motivation pushing you?

As for the posters who say that socialism does not work, look at places such as Sweden, Norway, Denmark - even Germany - pleases where there is much more social justice, look how well they worked - and Britain in the 1950s, with the beginning of the welfare state and the NHS.

GlitchStitch · 25/11/2019 12:13

Woolie do you recognise male bodied people with beards, penises and no physical transition at all as women if that's what they say they are? Because that is what Butler is advocating.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 25/11/2019 12:14

woolie
You do realise it is Jack Straw a former Labour Foreign Secretary who is public ally raising concerns about Five Eyes?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 25/11/2019 12:15

publicly

Alsohuman · 25/11/2019 12:16

You can vote for whoever you want, also

No shit, can I really? How incredibly decent of you to allow me to do that. Thank you so much.

Clavinova · 25/11/2019 12:16

I would like to respond to the person who has written about the assimilation of private schools that there is not such a thing in the Labour Manifesto

Something I've just read on tes about the Labour Manifesto/private schools;

What does "integrating" mean? (Hint: it begins with an A and ends in an N, and has "bolitio" in the middle)

•What are "elite" private schools?
•Are there non-elite private schools?
•How will all the money raised transfer seamlessly to improving the lives of "all" children?
•Are independent school children included in these children?
What is the Social Justice Commission?
•Who chooses who sits on its board?
•Will faith schools, academies, grammar schools, free schools and vegetarian schools also be "integrated"?
•If not, why not?

"Those last two questions are important because if Labour are going to create a new, unfair system should it not be unfair for the many, not the few?"

"Undoubtedly the state sector will have to absorb tens of thousands of new pupils.Outdated data, a lack of clarity about the legality of such an action, a disregard for its consequences, and a contempt for the jobs put at risk, such things suggest a party that has lost interest in serious thought."

Goddessofgrowth · 25/11/2019 12:16

Scandinavia is such a bad example.

The costs of living are extortionate for one.

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 25/11/2019 12:17

Fact is neither of them deserve the chance to form a Government at this time

Absolutely

But somebody's got to, so for many of us it comes down to a choice of who's least awful Sad

woolie34 · 25/11/2019 12:17

@EffervescentElephant I agree
I can't understand I've been not managing and I've been just about surviving financially my whole life and I could never vote tory. Even if I had to take a hit to my already unstable finances to make the UK better for all I would. I don't understand why others, particularly more wealthy, can't see this.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 25/11/2019 12:18

*Woolie "I'm not scared of trans people that I recognize as women sharing my public spaces. I'd rather I didn't have to share my space with bigots and racists, but I'm not making a fuss about that."

But you don't have the right to give permission for any male person to enter female spaces on their say so - which is what self-id is - for all women, just because you happen to know a few nice trans people (again, we all do, you aren't special there either).

Second, are you also saying women who don't agree with this are automatically "bigots" and "racists" (although I have no idea what race has to do with anything!)

Third, what do you say to the growing number of trans people who agree that males should not be permitted in private female spaces? Are they also bigots and racists?

Fourth, I see you have defaulted to the textbook insults to try and stifle legitimate questions. Why do you do that?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 25/11/2019 12:20

The costs of travelling to work by train is extortionate in this country. Housing is extortionate compared to wages in this country.

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