to think Scotland should be able to decide?

[KnowBetterDoBetter]

I thought Jeremy absolutely smashed the debate, but both of them seemed to be absolutely resolute that it would be awful to give the Scottish people a independence referendum. I see this all over the media, too.

It would be so so sad if Scotland left the union - half my family are Scottish, and I'd be absolutely gutted.

But surely if the Scottish people want to leave, they should be free to. We don't (or shouldn't) live in a national dictatorship governed by London.

If Scotland were a fed up wife, dreaming of leaving her husband (the rest of the UK), it'd be wrong to force her to stay, right? Even if her husband would be gutted?

Am I missing something?

“ I am with you on that Tiredmumssquad. Pretty much everything domestic is devolved too, so Scotland does not live under a Tory government, it lives under and SNP one. And quite frankly, I don't know anyone who is happy with the SNP's decisions around education, among other things.”

Ridiculous. Scotland doesn’t have control of its economy or trade under the devolution settlement.

Ridiculous. Scotland doesn’t have control of its economy or trade under the devolution settlement.*

And thank goodness, given their track record on health and education!

It seems to me that Brexit (hard or soft) may indeed be sufficient justification for an other one... Seeing as staying in the EU was a major argument in the first independence referendum.

But I'm not from the UK so my opinion is hardly relevant.

“ And thank goodness, given their track record on health and education!”

Lazy stuff. Scotland has the best performing healthcare system in the UK and comparatively good education. That’s despite not having control of our own economy.

Flippant, not lazy. Please point me to your evidence to back up the claim that we have the best performing healthcare system? And "comparatively good education" - comparative to what?

If there is a second referendum and if its no again, will sturgeon actually accept that though

That would depend on the electorate. When Scots get fed up with indy refs and the SNP they'll stop voting them in.

Please point me to your evidence to back up the claim that we have the best performing healthcare system?

www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/

Biased source but all their statements are backed up with the source.

Education is even harder to compare as the curriculum, ethos, and exams are very different.

Lazy stuff. Scotland has the best performing healthcare system in the UK and comparatively good education. That’s despite not having control of our own economy.

Really? My local hospitals are crap and the schools are a joke. They recently cut two classes at short notice because they wouldn't keep paying the teacher. Teacher was good, they just wouldnt keep paying for them. Plus the leaks in the roof across many school, lack of teachers, not building enough schools to cope with the amount of houses they build, heating not working etc.

Maybe it's only good down south in Edinburgh and Glasgow. What about those of us in the North? Are we just meant to make do?

Anecdotes aren’t arguments.

Prove how it's good then. Because I've yet to see the good side to the education system.

When an entire class in a college can fail two years in a row, one of them being the deans daughter, you are doing something drastically wrong.

If it wasn't for Brexit I would have said 'no' but Brexit has fundamentally changed the goalposts. Scotland was told in no uncertain terms that they could only stay in the EU by voting 'no' to independence.

The original Scottish referendum was very poorly drawn. I think for a change of that magnitude a simple majority just isn't enough, you need a super majority or at the very least over half of the population voting in favour, not just half the electorate. Also, Scotland was not only voting for independence, they were also voting for the break up of the UK and voters in the other three countries had no say in this, I don't know what the solution to that problem would be though, I don't think there is a solution. Anyway, the precedent has been set now though and I think the break up of the UK will be a likely consequences of Brexit.

I’m happy for Scotland to have another vote and leave the UK. I don’t believe in keeping the other 3 in the union if they don’t want to be in it. If there was a ref for England staying in the union, I’d vote to leave. I’m sick of all the bickering.

The original Scottish referendum was very poorly drawn. I think for a change of that magnitude a simple majority just isn't enough, you need a super majority or at the very least over half of the population voting in favour, not just half the electorate.

I thought the same about brexit too. Both were such massive decisions, you need to have a big majority to win, with half of the population voting for it. You can't get everyone to want it, but big majorities like that are better.

I'm a Psychiatric Nurse in the NHS here in Scotland. Of course it's not perfect but Im thankful I'm not in the NHS in England. Mostly all my colleagues who I know with an opinion will be voting Yes in the indy ref when it happens.

I voted Yes in 2014 and would do so again, especially when the fundamentals have changed. We were told that a No vote ensured our EU membership alongside the undelivered "Vow" from Cameron, Miliband etc.
My Dad who voted No would now vote Yes, my in laws who were No voters are now Yes leaning, due to the constant lies of a Tory government. I never fell out with anyone as I can accept that people have their own reasons, even if they differ from mine, and I respect that.
The constant drone of "We said No", "Once in a lifetime" etc is patronising, as a democracy we are allowed to change our mind if the landscape changes.
Also the utter contempt shown to Scotland by Westminster and the "Unionist" parties is horrific. Scotland is supposed to be a partner in a union, why is it not allowed to decide to leave the union if it is no longer of a benefit to it. It's like saying you're partner is a complete arsehole but you have to stay with them forever. Some Tories got voted into WM in 2017, yes, but so were 35 SNP MPs (59%) on a mandate of getting a 2nd Referendum. I highly doubt the Tories, Labour or Lib Dems will take any seats off them, and predict that come 13th Dec will have lost seats, especially Swinson, who is a clown. Boris will dissolve Holyrood in a heartbeat. I wouldn't trust him with a potato peeler never mind the country. Corbyn, I prefer, but again, I don't understand the need when he comes to Scotland to attack the SNP, rather than the Tories, who most Scottish people despise. The Scottish branches of Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem are all one trick ponies with a "no to iny ref 2" and "SNP bad" as the only lines they have. It's tiresome and to be honest reflects worse on them as they don't seem to actually have any other policies.
I personally don't like a lot of the SNP policies, however as a means to an end I vote them to put across the point that Scotland should have the self determination to decide it's own future, in light of Brexit and being dragged out of the EU and being governed by Tories we never vote in. If we get independence, the SNP will have to adapt to a changed landscape and alter a lot of their mandate and policies if they want to remain in power in an independent Scotland.

The Scottish branches of Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem are all one trick ponies with a "no to iny ref 2

Hopefully SNP will lose seats as a result of their demands for Indyref2 rather than putting forward ideas for improving life in Scotland -- oh, other than immigration which according to SNP MSP's is the solution to everything!! If your population is decreasing then there is a reason Nicola, maybe giving that some thought would have made your manifesto more appealing.

The referendum was horrible. Families were divided, communities were split and the country was a toxic place to be. Having witnessed that, and then witnessed the damage and fallout caused by the Brexit referendum, I find it extraordinary that anyone with any sense of pride in or respect for their country could consider putting it through that again.

This is absolutely true, it was hell.
Threads like this make me very sad.

“ *The referendum was horrible. Families were divided, communities were split and the country was a toxic place to be.“

This just isn’t remotely true. It’s a line the unionists peddle because they got such a fright that their 300+ year hegemony might have been at an end.

When people lie like this, their views on the entire issue can be disregarded completely. They aren’t engaging in good faith.

“ it was hell”

🤣

When people lie like this, their views on the entire issue can be disregarded completely. They aren’t engaging in good faith.

Please don't accuse me of lying when I am merely giving my view of something I lived through. To suggest that my views can be completely disregarded because my experience of the referendum was different to yours is nonsensical and belittles your own argument. I respect that we all have different views, I'm just concerned that Scotland is not ready for more division, and certainly not ready to be an independent nation. I'm happy to listen to your views on that, please allow me the same courtesy.

Well you are entitled to your view @StreetwiseHercules but your experience was different from mine.
Glad it gave you a wee laugh.

I really don’t want Scotland to leave the UK but it does seem to me that things have changed massively since the referendum in 2014. One of the reasons many Scots voted to remain in the UK was to protect Scotland’s membership of the EU so...

I'm in Scotland and hoping we don't get any more SNP MPs - they haven't shone so far

Joanna Cherry QC ? Alison Thewlis? Tommy Shepherd?

I'm not an SNP supporter but I so wish we had that talent in my party!

And thank goodness, given their track record on health and education!

Can't comment on education but as for the NHS! It was diabolical in the part of England I was living in. Basically just told to fuck off and rot.
Back in Scoltand and my care has been outstanding.

When people lie like this, their views on the entire issue can be disregarded completely. They aren’t engaging in good faith
I thought it was very divisive. Still a subject I wouldn't touch on round here. Like many remainders the losers are bitter.

We’ve already voted and voted to stay in the union. I don’t see the need for another debate - do we keep voting until Nicola Sturgeon gets what she wants? I’m in Scotland and not everyone wants independence.