to think Scotland should be able to decide?

[KnowBetterDoBetter]

I thought Jeremy absolutely smashed the debate, but both of them seemed to be absolutely resolute that it would be awful to give the Scottish people a independence referendum. I see this all over the media, too.

It would be so so sad if Scotland left the union - half my family are Scottish, and I'd be absolutely gutted.

But surely if the Scottish people want to leave, they should be free to. We don't (or shouldn't) live in a national dictatorship governed by London.

If Scotland were a fed up wife, dreaming of leaving her husband (the rest of the UK), it'd be wrong to force her to stay, right? Even if her husband would be gutted?

Am I missing something?

Tbh I don't really care if Scotland ruins itself through independence so long as the rest of the UK doesn't have to bail it out.

But most polls suggest there isn't an appetite for another referendum in Scotland despite Brexit I think the subject should be dropped.

Very cynical tactics from Corbyn to do that deal with Sturgeon as he knows he's too useless to get a majority so a labour-snp coalition (with indyref2 being the deal clincher) is the only way he'd ever get to be pm.

@Walkingdeadfangirl

Keep voting until you get the result you want, that is democracy.

Isn’t that what people want with regards to Brexit?

Agree with this why does ‘Scotland didn’t vote for ‘ always come up in arguements but when we and only we voted NO that still wasn’t a good enough answer! Clearly doesn’t count voting in Scotland unless it’s what the snp wants. I voted no and would do so again, and will keep doing so if necessary.

We already voted! We could do without the expense of another vote too especially since our children’s hospitals in particular need a lot of money thrown at them

I would rather our first minister actually did her job!

@CuriousaboutSamphire can l take you up on your offer please?! 2 adults, child, and X2 pets please!

Scotland 2019: I know we voted to Stay but we’d like to leave now as we don’t like it anymore.

Scotland 2025: I know we voted to leave the union but we’d like to come back please as we don’t like it anymore.

And both would be blamed on Westminster.

@Caledoniahasmyheartforever couldn't have put it better myself!

Also if this is an equal union, then who do they think they are to say no to even voting on it. Just imagine if the EU said no you can't have a bexit vote... Although actually that would be preferable to this shit heap of a situation

Really interesting to hear everybody's thoughts - totally admit that I am not sufficiently knowledgable on the nuances of the situation - because I'm not Scottish and I don't live in Scotland. Hence my posting.

I thought Jeremy absolutely smashed the debate That was your real message wasn't it. No he didn't

No why would that have been my real message? I'd have made a thread about it if it was. But I don't know who you are to say my opinions are wrong. I said 'I thought'. My 4yo debates better than Boris on whether she should be allowed to stay up past bedtime.
*
I can't stand this patronising shite about giving Scotland another referendum. Independence for Scotland would be economic suicide.*

That's patronising, isn't it? Why is it patronising to think the Scottish people can and should be allowed to decide what is best for their own country, without the English deciding it would be economic suicide and deciding it all for them? Maybe you are Scottish, but I don't understand why it's patronising for WM to grant another referendum. I can see that there are other issues - but because it would be patronising is a strange one.

I do understand that the last thing any of us need is more division and friction within our society. I didn't hear much about that, but have certainly experienced it re Brexit. So I guess I agree on that point. I think it's probably the biggest reason against a second referendum re Brexit, too. But is that division not still bubbling on in Scotland? Ramping up due to Brexit and the like? If there's not an appetite for it, why do the SNP still win so many seats?

Again, I know very little about the situation - so there is no need for aggression. I'm not trying to be inflammatory - I want to learn more. I'm all for collaboration and unity and staying together (both the UK and the EU). But I think that not listening, and not caring about what people with different opinions, values and concerns have to say - or worst, belittling or othering them because they think differently to you - is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.

Independence is the SNP's raison d'etre. They will never stop banging on about independence as long as they exist. They will use any change in the UK circumstances as an opportunity to make their cause relevant again. They are exploiting the Bexit situation to further their own cause. I'm not sure they really care about the economic arguments and specifics of how independence would actually work and what it would look like. They are playing on a nationalistic sentiment and dissatisfaction with Westminster politics, of which ironically they are a large contributory presence to the current shambles.

I hope the nation as a whole, but particularly Scots are wise to this and that they are soundly defeated at the ballot box.

Likewise, Brexit it UKIP/Brexit Party/Nigel Farage's raison d'etre. I'm not sure they would have gone quietly into the night if the referendum would have gone 52/48 against them.

Election/referendum losers shouldn't simply shut up and fade into irrelevance, but they should remain conscious of the results and not demand re-runs at any opportunity.

Democracy is about being able to change your mind.

The main counter argument to independence put forward by the UK government was that if Scotland wanted to remain part of Europe - as the Brexit referendum showed it does - then it had to remain part of the union.

That by itself is reason enough to allow another vote, even before you consider the clusterfuck that is westminster politics at the moment and that any sane fucking country would want no part of it.

If there's not an appetite for it, why do the SNP still win so many seats

1- I wouldnt say MN is truly representative of society, otherwise Brexit would never have happened.

2- I think people voting SNP is move about pro Scotland than Anti-UK.

Democracy is about being able to change your mind not before you implement a decision.
We dont vote in a government and have another election before they have taken power.

because I'm not Scottish and I don't live in Scotland. That's obvious.

the interesting thing about a Scots indy referendum is that last time it took place without anything really firmly agreed [see Brexit] in terms of what'd actually happen in terms of an independent Scotland's currency, trade agreements, current [vast] fiscal deficit, etc etc etc.

“ London voted Remain too but we are still the ones who are going to end up paying the biggest price for what the rest of England voted for and don’t get another choice, why should anyone else?”

London isn’t a country or a constituent nation within the United Kingdom and has never been one. If you want it to be a city state, then campaign for it. Nobody is stopping you.

Maybe she should concentrate on the NHS, schools etc and get those right first. She can't get those right, how can she manage a country completely alone?

This. There are two major problems with Scottish independence. Firstly, independence (and stopping Brexit) is the SNP's only policy. Even at the time of the last Indyref, they didn't have any answers to what they were going to do if and when they achieved their goal. They had no policies. In the years that have passed since the referendum, they've done nothing to improve education, healthcare, public services - in fact all have gone downhill. If they had shown they had a half decent grasp on what is needed to actually run the country that might have swayed my vote.

The second major issue, as PPs have said, is that Scotland is simply not in a strong enough position, financially, to become independent. Oil - which Nicola featured prominently in her original arguments - has fallen dramatically in price. The effect of this on places such as Aberdeen has been disastrous, with massive unemployment, falls in house prices etc. We're still operating at a massive deficit and there simply isn't the income to offset this.

The referendum was horrible. Families were divided, communities were split and the country was a toxic place to be. Having witnessed that, and then witnessed the damage and fallout caused by the Brexit referendum, I find it extraordinary that anyone with any sense of pride in or respect for their country could consider putting it through that again.

And that's without getting started on practicalities like the border, currency, armed forces etc. You better believe this will be as bitter as the NI backstop and just as impossible to solve. Is Scots pride really worth several more years of turmoil?

Some easy reading:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/11/snp-s-blinkered-approach-scotland-s-education-crisis-unsustainable

www.holyrood.com/comment/view,could-do-better-the-snps-failures-in-education-look-likely-to-turn-into-its_10521.htm

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/snp-has-been-in-charge-of-nhs-for-12-years-just-look-at-the-state-it-s-in-miles-briggs-1-5007158/amp

“ Just like brexit, you can't just keep having referendums till you get the result you want”
Yes you can, if you have a mandate to do so. Voting is democracy. Other countries have referenda very regularly.

“ But most polls suggest there isn't an appetite for another referendum in Scotland”

Well, that’s not true, is it?

there was a referendum, and the result was NO.
which means staying in the union.
like it or not, that's the result of the once in a lifetime referendum.

Also this independence is the SNP's raison d'etre. They will never stop banging on about independence as long as they exist.. Who will they blame for everything if they do get the vote?

“ that's the result of the once in a lifetime referendum.”

Go and get the Edinburgh agreement and show me where is says “once in a lifetime” or “once in a generation”.

“ Who will they blame for everything if they do get the vote?”

The SNP will very likely cease to exist in the event of independence. It will split into new parties.

Surely Scotland has now voted and the sensible thing is that they wish to remain as part of the UK .Their economic situation is surely improved by this .Also they must be doing something right as our Children (England) have to routinely pay for University fees but Scottish children dont?!.I have never understood this .Edinburgh is similar to London for wealth but children there would have no fees to pay? .

I'm surprised at a lot of these responses. Amongst the people I know there is huge support for Scottish independence and for the SNP.

drumroll introducing The Fixed Term Referenda Act 2020. We shall hold a referenda on various constitutional matters every 5 years until the end of time, never actually accepting or implementing the results, they are merely opinion polls on a larger scale and therefore of little consequence.
How does that sound?