I can't watch the leaders debate tonight. I'm too angry.

[ssd]

I'm too angry about brexit. And the effect it'll have on us all. I can see a tory majority happening and it sickens me. I don't know what's happened to ordinary people. They've fell for something that will make their lives worse, sold to them by an elite that has shafted them.

I can't fucking bare it.

Okay, imagine this

No. You've typed a load of nonsense and it amounts to a straw man so nobody cares.

What is it about Brexit that is better than what we currently have?
I think a lot of Leave voters expected Brexit to achieve something that it won’t. Reduced immigration - won’t happen because they’ll want quotas as part of a trade deal. Taking back our fishing waters - ditto. Taking back our borders - only an issue because our own government failed to control immigration and the EU got the blame.

Let’s not forget the context of the referendum - it was during the worst part of the migrant crisis and there was talk about “forcing” us (and other countries) to accept quotas of mostly male economic migrants who were committing criminal acts in other EU countries. Many people felt failed by the EU because they let the migrants pass through freely to our borders instead of stopping them as they should have done. A vote for Brexit was in many cases simply a vote for “I’m not happy about this situation”.

The thing is, Brexit can't really be swept to one side now. Many people have only become more entrenched in their view. I dont think revoke A50 will do any good, nor will a no deal Brexit. I think people genuinely need to decide once and for all what it is they actually want, hence I'm in favour of a peoples vote to settle it once and for all. You cant go back, once buyer's remorse sets in.

Just listened to some other party leaders and the conservatives are leading by a mile.

There is absolutely lots of their policies I disagree with - as a former labour labour voter I can only say please, please, please get rid of JC - The damage he's doing to a party I'd vote for without a doubt.

It wasn’t just that situation though was it? It was a kick up the backside about everything. The papers have continually blamed our woes on the EU and so has Farage and the EU group of Tories. It seems their mantra won through and now, if anyone believes voting Tory will “get Brexit done” they are going to be bitterly disappointed! We have years and years of negotiation ahead of us in a very changing world.

As for immigration - the latest figures show 1:5 immigrants is from the EU. So what good would leaving the EU do regarding bringing down immigration? Not much. Also we need immigration.

I personally feel Grenfell is a bigger disgrace than the Windrush scandal. The number of deaths alone make that the case. That isn’t condoning mistakes over residency but all the deaths at Grenfell was a total tragedy.

I don't agree. I think you're insulting voters who absolutely knew what we are voting for. And to disregard that on the arrogance that 'we didn't know what we were voting for?'

How did you know? You’re saying you knew more than the government who didn’t know?

Amazing. Maybe they should have hired you.

No. You've typed a load of nonsense and it amounts to a straw man so nobody cares.

The word you’re looking for is “analogy”. It’s not a straw man. It demonstrates the ridiculousness of the argument that we should pursue something because we voted for even if it’s inherently harmful.

It only matters if the Tories are leading in the swing seats or their target seats. Leading overall doesn’t always mean they will get the seats they need. Corbyn has been one long mistake. But, Momentum rules! So normal people have been shuffled off (from Tory candidature too) and all we have are extremes. I’m not voting for either of them.

*Deathgrip Wed 20-Nov-19 00:25:47
I don't agree. I think you're insulting voters who absolutely knew what we are voting for. And to disregard that on the arrogance that 'we didn't know what we were voting for?'

How did you know? You’re saying you knew more than the government who didn’t know?* No not at all, I'm saying I trusted the government to adhere to my vote

Amazing. Maybe they should have hired you. I don't think that's for anyone 'amazing' = maybe someone who stands by their word?

No. You've typed a load of nonsense and it amounts to a straw man so nobody cares.

The word you’re looking for is “analogy”. It’s not a straw man. It demonstrates the ridiculousness of the argument that we should pursue something because we voted for even if it’s inherently harmful.

Oh get away - it's 'stand by hour promise' Not, the verdict was the opposite to what you wanted. Let's have another referendum until we get the result we want! Really? You really think this is OK?

if by resolving one 'problem' will create even bigger problems then I really dont see how the issue can be fixed without asking people if they are sure it will be worth it
So would Corbyn accept a second vote to leave the EU? Or would he do what is best for the 'people' and ignore the result a second time (like Jo Swinson)?

This is why we need a decisive leader, not procrastinating sheep in wonky glasses.

But it's not "let's have another referendum til we get the result we want", it's more a case of "are you genuinely sure this is what you want?". There's a difference. Semantics matter.

Walkingdeadgirlfan - honestly, giving the benefit of the doubt, I think if people still wanted to leave, he would find a way to make that happen that was done with conscientiousness.

The word you’re looking for is “analogy”

The words I was looking for are "straw man". I found them.

@Walkingdeadfangirl Corbyn definitively said that if the country voted to Leave again that’s what he’d do. I actually think not revealing what he personally thinks isn’t a bad idea - either way he’d alienate half the country. By not saying what his personal preference is he stands a chance, if he got in, of uniting the country a bit more rather than being accused of favouritism either way - he’d be doing what the country (or half of them, at any rate) wanted without letting his personal preferences rule. I do wish he’d explain that though instead of seeming to avoid the question.

That aside, he did a damn sight better job at answering directly and not sounding like a broken record than Mr de Pfeffel Johnson did...

it's more a case of "are you genuinely sure this is what you want?
Unfortunately Corbyn is asking us to vote for him before he can tell us what the 3rd deal will be. He is asking us to vote for him before telling us if the thinks the 3rd deal will be one that is so good he wants it.

He is saying he will never tell us what he thinks of the 3rd deal he negotiates. Its all going to be hidden behind closed doors.

Why cant he just tell us his opinion so we can decide how to vote. What happened to transparency. Why is he so afraid of honesty?

I don't know what's happened to ordinary people. They've fell for something that will make their lives worse, sold to them by an elite that has shafted them

I feel the same OP. I think lots of people secretly love to have someone to look down on so they admire Tories who hate poorer people. They imagine they're aligned with the elite - Never underestimate the power of working class snobbery en masse.

I can't fucking stand Corbyn tho. Can he even spell the word 'Opposition?'. So much ammo he could have used against the Tories over the years yet he's all the impact of a damp squib. He needs to fuck off into the sunset let someone dynamic take over.

Not sure dynamic exists in the Labour Party tho, they're just hanging onto their jobs and ministerial perks whilst Boris & co dismantle people's lives. They don't give a shit.

I don't think that's for anyone 'amazing' = maybe someone who stands by their word?

I literally have no idea what this means.

You couldn’t have known what you were voting for. Experts didn’t know, the government didn’t know. What did experts did know was dismissed as “project fear”, despite the fact that those predictions for what the process would entail and the likely outcomes were accurate.

The Leave campaign lied about what it would mean.
The current deal or no deal would leave us worse off than we are.

Do you really think we should drive the country off a cliff because slightly more than half the voters said we should, even though they didn’t know (and couldn’t have known) what it would mean? I don’t think you know what it means now, so you certainly didn’t know then.

It’s not a straw man, since it’s not a logical fallacy.

It’s an analogy for the nonsense being peddled by many here.

I think you're insulting voters who absolutely knew what we are voting for. And to disregard that on the arrogance that 'we didn't know what we were voting for?'

So you voted for political chaos and millions of £s wasted. In which case you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

@Walkingdeadfangirl - I'm assuming you voted Leave without knowing what the deal would be?? Everyone who voted leave, voted so without knowing what the deal would be. So your argument falls flat on its face.

You cant know what a 3rd deal would be, because it hasn't been negotiated yet. But I believe the JC in principle when he says he will negotiate (or at the very least try) a deal with the EU and then put it back to the people to decide on once and for all. It seems sensible and responsible.

YANBU

I've been very unhappy with the way the U.K. has gone since 2010.

People who vote conservative don't seem to realise that the majority of us don't benefit from their policies. All they do is make rich people richer and use public money to pay agencies to strip money away from vulnerable disabled people.

Anyone wanting to see all the leaders against each other, Question Time Special on Friday night from Sheffield. I'm from Sheffield & I can't wait to see how many Tory tosspots are bused in by the BBC.

Agree with Soen.

I believe the JC in principle when he says he will negotiate (or at the very least try) a deal with the EU
And yet after 3 years he still wont tell us if he would support the deal he plans to negotiate. That screams he has so little faith in it we might as well bin it before it even happens. So what is the point?

I don't know what's happened to ordinary people.
Wow. What an utter snob you sound like.

He is putting the vote back to the people once he has renegotiated a deal with the EU. Because that is literally what democracy is

But why would the EU actually give us anything more than we have at the moment?

What timescale is JC thinking of?

Will the EU let us take more time asking for a worse deal for them?

Then time for a referendum.

Then what happens if there is 52% for this great new deal.
Will we still have protests about leaving the Eu

What if we don’t leave the EU.

A minority of people will be happy but the majority will take to the streets.

From the people I know who voted leave they voted to get out without a deal.
Then sort it all out later.

If we have say 5 years of negotiating deals ahead of us why are we wasting time

We could have been well into it by now if we had started directly after the referendum and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel rather than just getting going