Aibu nightmare child in dd class

[mussymummy]

So will try to keep this brief, dd was at nursery for 3 years with child, let's call him Bob who physically hurt her and other kids from age 2 when he bit another boy in the face. Nursery did not do enough (they have admitted this since) and the mother keeps making excuses for her darling Bob.
So now they are both in P1 in same class, I did request a class change for my dd but did not happen. He is a nightmare, punching kids in face, at afterschool club he has bitten and kicked one of the workers, his mum still refuses to accept responsibility for him and makes excuses
So this week he told my 5yo dd he was goin to kill her mummy and daddy as we slept. Cue tears, my heart breaking as my dd made me lock every window and door in house as she followed me doing it. She woke 3 times.that night (always sleeps right through) convinced child of chucky was trying to break in.
Ladies what do I do? The mother (aged in 40's with 2 older teenage ds) refuses to do anything about his behaviour because she has already raised 2 sons and there is nowt wrong with them.
I am struggling to know how to handle this. I spoke to the school who told me they have a behaviour plan in place for Bob and the last time I contacted the mum directly it did not go well (when we thought dd had a broken nose after Bob smacked her in face with toy car, there was lots of blood)
Any advice on next steps / how I handle this would be much appreciated

I meant don’t talk to the parents of Bob

Bob is a child just like your daughter.

Fairly evidently, Bob isn't.

Bob may have undiagnosed SEN and school won't tell you this (obviously).

This happened with a friend of mine. She has two NT children and refused to acknowledge that her youngest might have SEN. Luckily, he attended a private nursery school and when his behaviour got out of control, they said he'd have to leave. She finally had him tested and low and behold, he did have SEN as everyone had suspected.

Once he had a diagnosis, he was put on medication and his primary school was able to put the right measures in place. He's now 11 and doing well, has friends and interacts well with other children.

Speak to the school and use the term "safeguarding" as PP's have suggested. He needs the right help to be able to function at school and his parents/the school are doing him no favours by disregarding the warning signs. Not to mention the other pupils like your DD.

ceridwen if you have worked with autistic children then you surely know the phrase "If you've met one person with autism then you've met one person with autism". Perhaps you aren't aware that all autistic children are different and I can assure you that some children with an ASD can most certainly lash out physically when they cannot express themselves in other ways. I'm surprised you don't know that, having worked with autistic children.

Yes, I'm aware that all autistic children (and adults) are very different and that it is a wide ranging spectrum. What I don't understand is why a lot of people assume all poor behaviour = autism.

There are a very small percentage of children who are psychopathic. That doesn't mean I think all children with autism are psychopaths, quite the opposite in fact. There is a huge difference between lashing out physically because of a difficulty in regulating emotions, and threatening to kill people.

The only overlap between psychopathy/sociopathy and autism from my experience is that in autism there are sometimes difficulties with empathy (whilst the former typically shows in a markedly reduced or a complete lack of empathy as well as many other traits not found in autistic people). They are very different conditions and look very different, in my experience.

I agree with wombofonesown in that in the UK, we are terrified of saying anything about children who behave like this and I think it helps neither the child with the behavioural problem nor anyone else.

I am really too shocked to read about this. OK, I am an oldie,but never did these kind of issues arise in schools years ago, and certainly not with children at this young age, What is going on. Kids of 5,kicking and punching, and threatening to kill someone, omg,

Any kind of so called bullying,,as in a couple of boys fighting in the playground,was soon sorted out by a teacher,but this other extreme behaviour never happened.

A child like this would be removed from our school- zero tolerance regardless of any issue.
The school needs to be doing much more than brushing you off! They need him to be moved or your dd to another class. Although I cant imagine it being fair on other kids being dumped with him.

It sounds like special needs and Bob not being able to cope with the environment. The issue is that assessment and diagnosis take a long time. The school are aware of the problem, but not in a position to resolve them. Bob's parents may be trying to deal with it, too. There isn't much you can do if Bob is an angel at home, but overwhelmed by another environment.

We had.a similar problem, escalate to school governors mention it is a safeguarding issue helped us. If this doesn’t help LEA are your best bet. You must ensure that each incident is formally recorded by school who have a duty of care to your child

I am really too shocked to read about this. OK, I am an oldie,but never did these kind of issues arise in schools years ago, and certainly not with children at this young age, What is going on. Kids of 5,kicking and punching, and threatening to kill someone, omg

Oh FFS of course it still happened fifty years ago. Look at Mary Bell. My DM went to school in the 50s and there was “the disturbed kid” in her class who was from an abusive home, ended up killing himself in his teens. There was a kid like that in my brother’s class in the 80s too, his parents removed him so not sure how he ended up. These children have always been with us. This child’s behaviour is not the norm now either.

There isn't much you can do if Bob is an angel at home, but overwhelmed by another environment.

Can't the teachers let the parents know about his behaviour at school, though? What about the after-care worker whom he attacked?

Surely there's strong evidence that the behaviour plan currently in place isn't working.

The parents are highly likely to be aware. The problem being is Bob needs to go to school too. Bob is still a very young child and needs removing from the situation, calmly, if he's being aggressive. Whether that means a 'calm zone' or something else put in place, it needs to happen.

However, the behaviour needs to be dealt with there and then, rather than when he returns home. It's almost like a child having a tantrum in the supermarket and dealing with it an hour later after returning home, it's ineffective. Efforts should be made whilst he's behaving like that. Keeping a child who is aggressive and worked up in the class isn't effective management.

Why are you whipping your child up into a frenzy? She is little, you are a grown woman. Albeit one who calls small children names, which just undermines all your claims. You actually sound quite nasty.

At DDs school he would of been excluded by now if they follow their behaviour policy correctly. Can you find out the behaviour policy at your school op?
I would have written complaints for every incident that happens to the school, the governors, the LEA and anyone else I could find. Always keep copies of the complaints yourself and always send by signed post and keep the receipts to prove all complaints have been received.
Tell the school you have safeguarding concerns for your daughter, this word seems to scare schools into taking action sometimes.
You could contact social services as in my eyes of this is a SEN issue and the family are doing nothing to diagnose it, it’s neglect, if they are in the process of a diagnoses then no harm done and ss may be able to offer support which he obviously need SEN or not his behaviour is not normal.
Contact a solicitor, firstly get a letter sent to the school from the solicitor detailing you have safeguarding concerns for your child, the next step if nothing is resolved by the letter have a meeting with the solicitor present.
Also if he is terrorising other kids aswell rally the other parents to complain the same way as you, don’t let the kids be scared of school.
I get what pp are saying about possible SEN but this can’t mean he gets away with physically injuring other children and terrifying them with horrible threats. If this was my dd be terrorised I would not stop or let up on the school until it was resolved and no excuses would float.

At one time if a DC attacked a teacher/TA it was automatic suspension. It should still be the case. That may concentrate the mind of Bob's mother to get the diagnosis and support he needs.

At DDs school he would of been excluded by now if they follow their behaviour policy correctly.

Same here. Zero tolerance regardless of any issues. If there are, then that childs right to be schooled doesnt trump the issues/harm he causes to others. In fact a child like this was swiftly removed from ds school. Just reinforces the message to other parents that it wont be tolerated.

Your poor DD. It must be both saddening and infuriating to see your child being hurt like that.
I agree with pp to escalate it further and to basically force the school to deal with solving this this issue.
If they refuse to do anything, threaten to involve the Educational Inspectorate or whatever the equivalent is of that in the UK.

And I would be tempted too to involve the police but that might be a bit harsh on a little boy, though I surely wouldn’t hesitate to do it later on if the school didn’t deal with the issue.

"' I take extreme exception to the comment by awombofonesown that all children struggling to regulate their behaviour are going to grow up to be psychopathic abusers."

How INTERESTING that you conflate a child who is going up to another child and telling them he'll kill their parents with "all children struggling to regulate their behavior." If your child was doing that kind of thing to other children, bully for you that you eventually got him help, how about the kids he scarred? If he didn't mentally or physically scar any children, then your kid isn't this kid, and maybe you shouldn't get bent out of shape about people challenging the idea that accepting neurodiverse kids means accepting violence and refusing to exclude violent boys.

It doesn't seem like he's struggling to regulate his behavior at all.

In fact, it doesn't seem like ANYONE is struggling to regulate it.

These boys who are told it's their inalienable right to never be excluded regardless of how they behave toward other people and whether they compromise the physical safety of others, will grow into violent, entitled men who take advantage of every system they can.

If you think your child's "struggle" to maintain emotional regulation reached a point of threatening to kill someone's parents at age 5, but didn't mentally scar other children and change the way they related to others, you're delusional.

Remove your child from the school. sadly, the school system us so overstretched they can only deal as long as everything goes according to plan. once it doesn’t, there are no ressources to support

@AcrossthePond55 how was it resolved if you don't mind me asking?

Honestly I would be moving schools.

Wish I had never opened this thread.

I am a mother to ‘Bob’. DS has physically hurt children in his class (he’s 5), he screams, he cries. ‘Luckily’ he only does this if he is touched, he wouldn’t go out of his way to harm another child and his worst insult is calling someone a ‘pop’.

His is now under an educational psychologist. It had taken 2 years to get to this point and it’s only because I am a teacher and constantly pressure school and other services that this has happened. If I was not in education and left it all to my GP we would still be waiting for a referral. As a PP mentioned cuts have meant there is little support available. I WANT DS to have a TA but until her has a diagnosis he will continue to demonstrate difficult behaviours in class as he can not control himself. Other children already see him as the naughty child and since pre-school (same class, same children), he has only ever been invited to one party.

I am sorry your DD is having a horrible time at school. I just thought you should be aware that ‘Bob’ maybe too.

I’m a teacher and would agree with @motherrunner that there could be a lot more going on. One of my class is currently going through a really difficult time and displays behaviours similar to those you have outlined. She has SEN but I’m pretty sure parents don’t know that. There is no formal diagnosis yet and no funding for an additional adult. Please continue to inform the school in writing. Keep it factual with verbatim quotes from your DD. It will be taken seriously by staff (including safeguarding lead). As a teacher you are constantly trying to balance the needs of all 30 children and it is not acceptable for a child to be hurt or scared at school. It’s just a case of finding something that’s workable and fair to all, that ensures the challenging child has access to an education and fun whilst keeping others safe.

GP may be another avenue - their duty is to you as a patient, they can record the injuries and have close links to social services (they have to mention safeguarding concerns).

A 5 year old talking about killing people doesn't understand what they are saying.
The police won't be interested.
Talk to the school about safe guarding and follow the proper process.
You can always move your child to a different school.
Remember Bob could have been your child.

OP I have every sympathy for you and your daughter. In honesty have you ever thought that he might have trouble at home too? The only reason I ask is because to anyone reading this it’s obvious.

I think you need to get in touch with Education Scotland ASAP and talk to educational charities in your area. I hope you’re somewhere not small or rural as services in Scotland are stretched more tightly than in England and a school move is inevitable if the parents and school fail to make an impact on his behaviour.

Going against the grain here it sounds not necessarily SEN but consistent with abuse in the home. The articulation of threatening to kill makes me think this along with the violence. Again though, I’m no expert. Just don’t assume SEN and possibly allow the school to echo this and comfortably fall into a path of least resistance.