Aibu nightmare child in dd class

[mussymummy]

So will try to keep this brief, dd was at nursery for 3 years with child, let's call him Bob who physically hurt her and other kids from age 2 when he bit another boy in the face. Nursery did not do enough (they have admitted this since) and the mother keeps making excuses for her darling Bob.
So now they are both in P1 in same class, I did request a class change for my dd but did not happen. He is a nightmare, punching kids in face, at afterschool club he has bitten and kicked one of the workers, his mum still refuses to accept responsibility for him and makes excuses
So this week he told my 5yo dd he was goin to kill her mummy and daddy as we slept. Cue tears, my heart breaking as my dd made me lock every window and door in house as she followed me doing it. She woke 3 times.that night (always sleeps right through) convinced child of chucky was trying to break in.
Ladies what do I do? The mother (aged in 40's with 2 older teenage ds) refuses to do anything about his behaviour because she has already raised 2 sons and there is nowt wrong with them.
I am struggling to know how to handle this. I spoke to the school who told me they have a behaviour plan in place for Bob and the last time I contacted the mum directly it did not go well (when we thought dd had a broken nose after Bob smacked her in face with toy car, there was lots of blood)
Any advice on next steps / how I handle this would be much appreciated

We had a Bob in my DD’s reception class, he was a complete nightmare. Fortunately he didn’t target my DD but he made the lives of a couple of kids an absolute misery.

I knew enough about the parents to see where the threatening, abusive language came from, I never worked out who was hitting who but there was definitely physical violence going on. They didn’t hold back at the school gates and it didn’t take much time to work out that it was a very abusive relationship.

I was extremely happy when mum had a slanging match with another parent outside the school about parking, got the hump and moved the child to another school - problem solved for us.

There is another Bob in another class though (now y3), as he is friends with a friend’s child I’ve seen his behaviour firsthand. In trouble from reception for beating up other kids etc etc. Parents (very well to do) always, always blame other children for leading their little darling astray, so the kid spends a lot of time seeing the headteacher - at least that means the other kids aren’t subjected to him.

Why should OPs DD be forced to leave her school and her friends? This is so sad for both children, both are clearly being let down

Because from way too much experience with this sort of shite, a school that doesn't adequately tackle situations like this quickly, never does & when this issue has been resolved, there will be another & another & so on. I fought the system & won for my DD who didn't want to move schools. It wasn't the answer because the schools ability to deal with situations like this was poor & it didn't stop with 1 boy, but they did start to cover things up too. I did have to remove her in year 6, things by ever improved, just the names change. I wish I could go back & remove her in year 1

@marshmallowss according to the guidelines it shouldn't take that long. But in reality gathering the evidence and going through the process does take that long in our LA. Sorry I wasn't clear that some areas are quicker.

It’s what the law says, not just “guidelines”. My guess is that if any parent got an education solicitor to write a pre action protocol letter, threatening judicial review, the LA would move a lot quicker in producing an EHCP. Just because a LA flouts the law, it does not mean that parents have to accept it meekly!

don't know what you expect his mum to do about his behaviour in school

And there in a nutshell why some children grow up into being appalling bullies. Including the one that made my sons last 2 years at primary school an absolute misery. All because Mum and Dad blamed everyone else and the more he bullied others, the more they spoiled him and basically taught him he could do what he liked. I actually can't believe I've just read this. People will expect the Mum to actually parent! This wee one is only 5 so hopefully not too late but it will be too late at some point.

The thing that saddens me about this is that the OP's DD must be 'safeguarded' and assured a basic minimum of care, but the Bobs of the world get all the resources and attention. The OP's DD deserves more than this. She deserves to flourish. What of the quiet shy children who might have problems and issues at home or needs that don't get noticed because they don't impact others?

I totally agree with WombOfOne. I've met lots and lots of DC whose behaviour is absolutely terrible. From violent to manipulative to junior narcissistic. I've been with these DC from age 2 to teens and I only know of one who has a SEN, was frustrated and out of his comfort zone when went to senior school for half a year and was then fine.

I've come across 6 bullies during my DC's school year who all targeted my DC along with others. On not one occasion did my schools deal with it. They all circled round to protect the bully.

There is only one way to stop a bully. That is to stand up to them and make them see that picking on your DC was a mistake and they should take their BS somewhere else. Their parents rarely accept that their DC is a menace. All you can do is give their parents a massive headache so they tell their DC to keep away from yours.

For what it's worth - we had similar issue for a long time with another child. Turns out all this while, this child was already in the process of being monitored and referred to special needs school. These things take a long time, monitoring, referring, analyzing etc. The child eventually did leave. Maybe this boy is already in a similar situation?

@MontStMichel The LA are snowed under. They haven't got enough funding or staff to get them out much faster. I don't blame the LA. I blame central government for the total stripping of funding at all levels of education. We've got a bit off track from the OP here though! This boy clearly needs help and the fight is even harder if parents aren't on board.

Violent boy at DDs school was never removed - got kicked threw chairs threw scissors etc

Kids were regularly removed to the hall for safety where they spent two hours without any school work.

I moved her to a new school and it was great. She left with great scores and lots of friends

I wouldn’t hesitate to remove her again.

If this was my child I'd contact SS on him, to be honest. His behaviour is far beyond normal and there's a chance something's going on at home. It's only right that they look into it. Plus, it should mean that my child's safety is prioritised quicker.

I'm sorry, but another child's issues/undiagnosed SN isn't for my child to shoulder. The school has let this go on far too long. Any more of it I'd withdraw my child.

Another teacher here. Do not speak to Bob’s mother. I would speak to the head one more time listing all your concerns, following with a letter to the governors. Ask them what they are going to do to safeguard YOUR child.
Unfortunately I suspect that nothing will be done of any use and I would move schools after Christmas.

We had a Bob. From toddler group right up til juniors.
Nothing ever happened to stop it. It wasn't even SEN which could make it a bit more understandable but I know he was assessed and found to be NT. (found out from an extremely reliable source)

We had to wait it out until his mother pulled him out of school at 9. We think she jumped ship before she was pushed when a new head teacher arrived and appeared to take it seriously.
What made it worse was that his mother had been a teacher at the same school and was good friends with the other staff there who were locals. Who's going to hold a formal meeting with their drinking buddy who was on their hen do or who was their bestie from high school?

What did we do? We went in to the school and complained.
We had meetings with the head. In one meeting I told the head that every day my DS came home and told me how Bob had hurt him that day. Her response was, "Well perhaps you need to stop talking about it." I asked what she meant as it was the first thing out of DS's mouth, not mine. She replied, "You need to shut down every conversation before it starts. Don't encourage DS to keep thinking about Bob and encouraging him to make an issue out of it every day"
So basically, I needed to shut the victim up. It was so crazy that I couldn't formulate a response. I still to this day think surely I misunderstood somehow. But I know I didn't.

We had regular meetings with the teachers.
We didn't keep quiet every time our children emerged from the class with a marked face or a scribbled on piece of work. Or an uneaten lunch he had spat on.
We complained and complained.
We had public arguments with the mother.
Once we were at an event and the kids were in another room. One child kept running through, and interrupting in tears with tales of how the boy was hurting them. Eventually the boy's mum said, "Oh I'm sick of this, just bloody hit him back!" (He didn't though)
Instead of Bob's mum going out to deal with him (everyone had overheard it) she sat there not saying a word.
At the end she took the mum aside and had a go at her, asking how she'd feel if someone told their child to hit hers. The poor mum didn't know what to say but should have told her that that is what every parent feels when she allows her child to attack theirs on a daily basis. Poor mum eventually took her child out and went to another school. Bob was a factor in that decision as well as the school failing her kid.

Nothing ever happened. No action was ever taken.

It's a huge thing that all schools have a bullying policy. However, that policy is often just platitudes, stating that bullying will be dealt with etc. "Zero tolerance" is bandied about a lot. Often there isn't an actual process they have to follow. Each case is different and as such, a lot of the time teachers prefer to tell the victims "Just stay away from X then" rather than escalating it by dealing with X.

Write to the LA or parent council. Note every issue. Log everything and demand action.

Don't do what one mum did and corner Bob, get down into his face and quietly whisper to him to stay the fuck away from her child and if he so much as looks in her child's direction again then she will fucking end him". Definitely don't do that. I mean, he never went near her child again but yeah. It's wrong. Very naughty. Shouldn't do that. Nope. Shouldn't do that at all.

Bob has bigger issues going on his life than SEN if he's coming up with threats of killing parents at the age of 5! I think social services would be interested in checking out his family background. For Bob's sake as well as your dd's. He clearly is being exposed to inappropriate language/material to even have such a concept in his 5 year old head.

the Bobs of the world get all the resources and attention

My son isn’t violent but he has autism and significant needs and we’re battling to get any help. In my elder son’s class there was a horrible violent abusive little shit who got one on one teaching assistant support and was allowed out of class on a whim. He used to stand will in school time throwing basketballs in the playground with a teaching assistant standing with him at all times. Meantime they somehow still managed to fail in the basics of keeping my son safe from him.

I would reassure my child, speak to the headteacher, write to the governors and make enquiries about moving schools. If the matter is resolved to your satisfaction you might not need to do the last one. Utterly unacceptable.

"Bob" is not your problem but he is your DD's problem, sadly.

Move her to another school if you possibly can. Maybe Bob can be helped, but you don't need to involve your DD and she could be seriously damaged mentally or physically.

It's the only thing you can really do in our system.

There are no school governors in Scotland, previous posters are not aware of this.

OP, if you are getting no action from school you need to contact the local authority. Funding for ASN where we are (in Scotland) has been cut to the bone, at council level, so schools have no funding for supporting children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. So it's important that parents tell the council about the effects. I would also get in touch with your elected councillor and request a meetjng with the convener of education.

I'm so sorry about the effect this has had on your poor DC.

I agree with others, report every incident in writing to the head, mention you are concerned for the safety of your child, and ask for a meeting with the Head. Encourage other parents whose children have been affected to write in too.

My DS found primary school difficult due to SEN but he didn’t hurt others - it was more disruptive behaviour in the classroom, but myself and school sought support and got him therapy sessions which helped him to cope with school better, and I paid for myself to go to a course for parents.

I don’t think you should just say ‘they can’t help their behaviour’ because how is that fair on the other children or the teacher? They won’t always be 5, how will they cope with secondary school?

I wonder where this boy gets this idea of killing others from? It makes me wonder what he is being exposed to at home and is perhaps being exposed to inappropriate language / films / computer games.

You need to keep a log and see the head teacher on Monday about their failure safeguard your dd. You need to escalate up as well.

Don't bother with the mum, she's no help- she can't be at school with him and if she refuses to believe he's violent then she's in denial and no help anyway.

Whether bob has SEN, issues at home, both or none of the above isn't your concern. The school would and should never say and your focus needs to fixed on your dds right to a safe environment. Bob needs support and engaging but that's not for you to focus on.

My dfr had a bob at school. He had an awful home life, thankfully SS placed him with his grandparents due to his parents shitness. He became a different child, still prone to anger due to his upbringing but his grandparents and the school managed it together and supported him. There was a bob in my school, she had a nasty father too and took it out on other children. The school was rubbish as were her parents. In her case she backed off and ended up changing schools when, after she stabbed a childs arm with a compass, they beat seven shades out of her. She, unlike the Bob, is still an unpleasant person and a bully. Whether that would be different had she been supported who can say 100% but being unsupported and unchallenged hasn't helped her any.

@MontStMichel we have an illegal EHCP with no time specified for TA etc etc etc. We are taking it to tribunal but the LEA insist it is all fine and just tried to ignore regulations on holding a review. You are a tad optimistic.
And our DS has not had anyone at home bite him or kick him in the teeth (DH did shout at him for taking all the duvet in bed this morning if that counts) yet when in fight or flight mode he did both of those to a TA (not the same day) and was excluded. It isn't going to stop him doing those when he's panicking though. Data shows that exclusion doesn't work.
DS is too young or too verbal for the special school options (no we are not sending an adopted 7 year old to boarding school). He can't learn to get along with other children by never being with them. So mainstream school it is, very sorry to the other parents and if you have a child like this in your school, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the best they can. So please don't, like the other parents at DS school, stop talking to the child's parents.

Talking to the police wouldn't make any difference to us (fortunately DS has, at worst, pushed a few other children though apparently they are complaining to the school too). DS knows he's not supposed to push other children and he usually says sorry. He's not the only child at school ever to push other children, and he's not bullying (he knows very few of the other children even by name, as he's new). He's just very stressed.

To the OP: talk to school. Not the police. I'm surprised that nursery told you about their management of another child but school may not be aware of this history. They will be able to add this to their dossier of either "mum is struggling to get help" or "mum is in denial".

I would reassure my child

Unfortunately it impossible to adequately reassure a child who is see the figures of authority in their lives attacked & hurt by Bob everyday. DCs learn quickly that Bob is untouchable & fear them more

From our experience the School might not even have a say, which is why you go to the top & threaten bad publicity & law suits. I was told that DCs placed in schools by the LA, can't be expelled in the normal way by the school, their hands are tied. I still believe my getting a note written on the back of recycled paper with the DofEs details was no accident

I totally agree with others. As a parent of a child with severe autism, I do get angry that so many people seem to think Violent = Autism.
I’ve had people say my child cannot possibly have autism as they do not hit, punch, hurt etc others.

Pees me off too yellow especially as they are very often the victims, not the perpetrators

OP are you in Scotland? I can’t see where you’ve said this but it seems to be being taken as fact. Obviously if you are, a lot of the advice on here is not relevant

In the OP, P1 is mentioned, which is Primary 1 there, so a high probability that the OP is in Scotland.

Bob sounds seriously disturbed. I think you should talk to the Headteacher, tell them he has threatened your child and physically harmed her and others and been like this for years and demand she does something about it. It is very odd behaviour from a 5 year bold. As well as dangerous. Sounds like a safeguarding issue.