To want Primark to provide a women only changing room?

[Amelia1985x]

I’m a regular Primark customer and was surprised to go the store yesterday and find all the changing rooms had been redesignated as mixed sex. The shop assistant told me not to worry, because most customers on the ladies’ floor were women, and anyway, she could see down the line of curtained cubicles and would challenge a “dodgy man”. When I questioned her about how she would spot one, she called the Manager as he could explain the policy better.

He told me the world was changing. I asked him why Primark had had sex segregated changing rooms in the first place. No answer. I asked him what specific legislative change or scientific discovery had occurred that made the world different to this time last year. No answer. He said that this arrangement was more inclusive for nonbinary people.

I explained that I didn’t feel that comfortable stripping to my knickers in a mixed area, and he told me I could always use the one disabled cubicle which has a lockable door. Clearly this has been designed for mixed sex use and did have a lock, but obviously I would then be blocking its use for a disabled person. He suggested there was no reason to be concerned. Yet when I think about me and my women friends, all our me-too moments, - of being flashed at, or masturbated at, sexual assaults and rapes – all have been my men.

The manager was unabashed. He said Primark had done research – even though he couldn’t produce it, and there were no leaflets or posters to explain this HUGE policy change to customers. He told me I was the only person who had ever complained.

So I guess this is what I want to know. Am I a dinosaur? Am I being unreasonable to want a women only changing room?

Eckhart yet your way is a pipe dream.

The changing rooms as they exist now will be safer for the greatest number of humans if they stay single sex.

Everything you are posting about is hot air because it's day dream scenarios in your head to distract from the fact that what's actually happened is just that men have been invited to use the existing female facilities without any added security or doors.

@notnowmaybelater Aiming for ideals. What a fool I am.

@Eckhart It does seem a bit like you're just trying to pacify us by saying but if they did this wouldn't that be alright. That's not what is being done and that's not what this thread is about.
Have you emailed relevant businesses and said you'd like to see this? Have you asked them on Twitter?(if you're on it!).
Also because I'm curious, what is your personal definition of a woman?

Eckhart it's impossible to believe that you are invested in equality if you cannot be bothered to find your own statistics.

You're invested in demanding others do your research for you to deflect from the increased danger to girls of inviting men to change in their changing rooms.

@MamaToTheBabyBears I've no interest in pacifying anybody and I think in fact I've pissed quite a few people off. I think it's appalling what's being done currently (in the OP and other places)

I also think that continuing to segregate the sexes rather than make changing rooms safe for everybody and catching the predators, is appalling.

I haven't spoken to any companies, no, because I'm not a campaigner generally and I've not been in this situation recently.

A woman has a vagina. A man has a penis. That's what I think, anyway.

@notnowmaybelater I'm not demanding that others do it for me. I've tried and failed. I'm not a research genius though, so maybe somebody knows something I don't?

I'm not deflecting from the increased danger to girls of inviting men to change in their changing rooms. Would you like me to say it again? Lockable doors and adequate security for everybody. How does a predator breach adequate security? They can't, because it's adequate.

I'm not saying it's ok as it is or that the current changes have been acceptable.

I was in Primark today and the changing rooms had those really horrible flimsy curtains which don't touch the floor and never seem to close fully

Eckhart but there isn't adequate security.

You're playing the cello on the Titanic instead of stopping two guys rowing off alone in a lifeboat for 50.

@notnowmaybelater haha! I doubt I can save the world alone and I don't use Primark.

I'm having a conceptual discussion about ideals on a forum. Many have said it would be ok if we had full length doors with locks. You haven't taken them up on it.

Titanic sank ages ago and I can't play the cello. You're miles off on that one

The idea then is to mix things generally, the arguments being made apply across the board. Hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms etc.

The idea that boys are at risk, so girls who at at higher risk should be in with men is a rubbish idea. Most men are heterosexual, many sex crimes are opportunistic. Women and girls are also taught not to make a fuss, and their complaints unless of the worst crimes are not taken seriously.

Men who want to prey upon boys usually use different methods for these reasons.

There is no denying that women and girls are subject to creepy, pervy, illegal sexual behaviour in public/ shared spaces on a regular basis from a young age in s way that boys are not. Men don't shout sexualised comments at boys from cars, and none of my husband's friends have been masturbated at in public, while me and all my female friends have.

Also, the vast majority of men and boys don't want women and girls in their toilets, fitting rooms etc.

Why can’t they just have men, women and mixed? Why does everything need to be mixed?

This reminds me of a school I worked in - there were 3 x Year 3 classes, 3 x Year 4 classes and 1 mixed class of Year 3 & 4. Reportedly the most complaints came from parents that their child was in the mixed class. The Head's solution to the number of complaints was to make all of the classes mixed! Eventually sense was seen.

@Eckhart People are getting annoyed because you're proposing solutions that companies just won't go for. I can't see these companies refurbishing all changing room across the country, hiring security staff and providing training. You're often talking about them as though it's reality and that's what is happening and that is quite frustrating. The realistic and progressive solution is single sex spaces. The stories of assault and hidden cameras have spiked since males have been allowed in female spaces. Sexism is a real problem, to me it's clear sexism deeply affects both men and women and it's becoming very dangerous for women. Sexist/gender stereotypes do not define your biology, it's very outdated, I feel like soon it'll be if you're not a 60s housewife then you're not really a woman. Go make me a sandwich, your womanhood depends on it.

If you want to be productive with these suggestions then please do email relevant businesses with your thoughts. I'm not a campaigner, but I've emailed, I've told them my thoughts on the matter and that I won't be shopping there until there's change. You absolutely don't need to be a campaigner to do that and the more people's opinions they have the better. Surely they'll ultimately follow the money?

If you could consider the standpoint, that unless changing rooms are refurbished and extra staff properly trained are hired then they should remain single sex, that would be significantly less annoying. Rather than wouldn't it be nice if this was done, who would complain then, what's your problem with my solution etc.

@MamaToTheBabyBears I don't really care why people are getting annoyed with me. I've been making a point about how I'd idealistically like things to be. So have others on the thread who've said that changing rooms with locked doors would be better. I've said that I think what happened in the OP was appalling. I'm not going to write an email to Primark to say they should change things when I never shop there. This is just an internet forum, and this thread is full of sexist women. It's been entertaining to hear people's views, but I'm not looking for your advice on what I ought to do.

I'm sorry if you feel frustrated by my views. If you want to be productive about sorting that out, try some chocolate and a massage.

Did you enjoy that patronising, unsolicited advice? No? Irritating, isn't it.

YABU

If you don't like it I'd suggest voting with your feet and shopping elsewhere.

It's not sexist to recognise the fact that sexual crimes globally are committed the vast majority of the time by men, and that women and girls are at particular risk.

Women and girls are subject to a range of behaviour from men from low level creepiness to the most violent sex offences, at a distressingly frequent rate. The vast majority of women and girls in the UK have had men do weird, freaky, upsetting, scary stuff to them, often more than once, and starting from when we are young.

The denial of this reality is out and out misogyny. The feelings of men matter more than the safety and comfort of women and girls. Nothing new or progressive there, just the usual, we have to put up with it, not make a fuss etc etc

Some people are just, well they just don't care really.

@Fraggling Who has denied that that happens? I haven't seen it on this thread.

I’m housebound at the moment but hoping not to be in the new year (whole other thread!) plus I have dd (18).

Anyone who even occasionally peruses the fwr boards on here will already have been aware of this issue.

It’s now reaching the main boards more and I’m seeing more challenging of these type of policies on sm where before there was a lot of it not being acceptable to point out that such policies decimate women’s rights and spaces and endanger women and girls.

Plus we have a right to dignity and privacy even before we reach the awful point of actual danger.

Dd already mainly shops online for a number of reasons but this is certainly one of them. But one of the others - that there’s rarely enough provision of women’s changing rooms, I wonder if that could be used in our favour here.

Certainly my memories of using our local shops and especially those in nearest city is that the women’s changing rooms had huge queues whereas the men’s was much quieter, if there are women who would feel confident doing so (and I would for items like jumpers/cardigans, other outer layers) then march into what was previously the men’s changing rooms and make them queue! Bet they’ll then complain and that may change company’s policies. Shouldn’t be necessary but needs must.

Men should be complaining too anyway on behalf of their daughters, sisters, mothers, wives etc

I’m also wondering if girls/women are victims of crimes due to this policy then I’m hoping (but equally understand it’s tough and totally up to the victims) that they may also be able to sue the shop on something like failing in duty of care would love to get a lawyers take on this.

Eleanorshellstrop & eckhart - I’m getting so sick of seeing posters on this subject giving it “I don’t see what the problem is” ESPECIALLY when there has already been a number of posts on the thread clearly explaining EXACTLY why it’s a problem. It’s disingenuous, faux naïf “cool woman” nonsense!

You DO know why it’s s problem but you seem so keen to prove yourself unbothered you ignore and dismiss the very many girls and women who’s dignity, privacy and SAFETY is being compromised here.

We already have a culture in the Uk where rape is pretty much legal, as is murder if you can remotely claim “rough sex gone wrong” this is very much bolstering that culture and throwing girls and women under the bus of perverts desires!

I’m a survivor of csa, I have friends who have also been victims of sexual assault who are/will find such policies limit their lives even further. I have other friends who’s religious beliefs mean such policies will prevent them using such facilities.

I would not feel safe with a bloody flimsy half hung curtain being all the barrier there is between me and a man I don’t know.

Very few changing rooms are of the full wall and door and lockable door type certainly where I live, because they’re more expensive to the shops. And even these type of changing rooms aren’t immune to the possible planting of hidden cameras.

We deserve to KNOW that our bodies will not be plastered all over the internet against our wishes.

We deserve to KNOW we are safe to try on clothes before buying

We deserve to KNOW our daughters are safe from the above too.

“All men do not need to be segregated from women because of them.” Completely disagree. My life experience has taught me that:

Men do not fear being caught

Men do not fear social censure for such behaviour

Men do not fear the consequences even if prosecuted.

I believe based on my life experience that more men and boys are sexually predatory than we currently recognise. Because certain behaviours that we as girls and women recognise as inappropriate are NOT considered so by the majority of boys/men.

This is not just based on experience as a victim of numerous assaults and harassment though that’s part of it, but from many discussions in real life in male dominated environments AND reading many accounts online from the male perspective of many incidents which were clearly to me and others cases of those men assaulting/raping girls and women.

“and I think that that attitude is pervasive and is part of the problem” quite honestly imo so is yours.

“is effectively just posting "I have no empathy" aren't they?” Yep!

“The reality is that the vast majority of people who use changing rooms, unisex or otherwise do not suffer from any kind of abuse.” Where’s your evidence for this? Cos I’m willing to bet there’s a HELL of a lot of incidents going unreported

I was getting changed in my local Primark a few months ago and a male was in the changing room next to me. He dropped something and it rolled into mine and he just opened the curtain, he quickly shut it again and asked me for it - no idea now what it was, but he had to wait till I was dressed to get it back. No apology. I complained about their new policy on the way out but the staff just shrugged their shoulders. I won't be back.

@Graphista Don't spout about what you think I know. I've made my point a hundred times. Adequate security is necessary to stop men (or anybody) abusing women (or anybody) It really is that simple.

Sounds like you've had a rough time. I'm sorry to hear it.

If you are so desperate for mixed sex spaces then all you need to do is make the men's mixed sex and you can all use them together, and leave us the hell alone.

I believe based on my life experience that more men and boys are sexually predatory than we currently recognise

My life experience has told me the exact opposite to that.

Mixed changing rooms don’t bother me, I’m behind a curtain/door🤷🏼‍♀️
If you really don’t like it then take it home and try it on or shop elsewhere.

YANBU I think this is outrageous, why are we taking from women and people with disabilities to benefit a tiny amount of people? I am unable to use mixed sex changing facilities or toilets (unless the only toilet that's a single lockable bathroom including sink) as a result of the rape, sexual assault and harrasment I have been subjected to by men and so I will avoid any shop that does not respects womens right to safety and privacy by maintaining what's been the bloody bare minimum standard for the past 100 years!

I can't even take my bins out at night now this.

If anyone knows of a petition or a letter writing campaign please let me know and I will support it.

If you really don’t like it then take it home and try it on or shop elsewhere.

Wow! So going BEYOND blaming victims into expecting VICTIMS to adjust their lives in a way that limits and inconveniences them

Why should we?! It's fucking 2019!

Why should we have to regress to being home even more, to having OUR choices limited, to having to spend more on either transportation or post and packing, to having to spend more time acquiring something as BASIC a human NEED as clothing because there are idiots who think MENS right to infringe on women's spaces that were really bloody hard fought for over hundreds of years, is MORE important.

I'm disgusted by the men and organisations facilitating this crap.

I'm utterly bewildered, disappointed and ashamed by the women that defend this shite!

It is the epitome of handmaiden thinking and it makes me both heartbroken and furious.

And eckhart if you were TRULY sorry for what I and many other girls and women have been through as victims of harassment and assault (and quite honestly aside from the csa I don't believe I have particularly been through more than most women from discussions I've had both online and in real life) you wouldn't be supporting societal changes that put girls and women at MORE risk.

Once an assault has happened the damage is done

THAT is why it is important not to create the conditions that facilitate them

THAT is why prevention is better than prosecution (which frankly is a fucking joke anyway)

THAT is why women's spaces need to be protected

Eckhart it was a metaphor.

It isn't a conceptual discussion on a forum, it's something that is actually happening - yesterday, today, tomorrow.

"You haven't taken them up on that" is a daft thing to say, because it's not real offer.