I honestly don't understand why anyone who cares about anyone other than themselves would vote Tory.

[ilovetofu]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/27/doctor-nhs-vote-labour-austerity-conservatives?CMP=sharebtntw&twitterimpression=true&fbclid=IwAR2JhAMh9bEiRfeALJeTzeP8ogAByuwaitNpshoQ8oEQfYLvlTc7tvJ50

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Simple answer to the question- because the alternative is Jeremy Corbyn, and in many cases another alternative has no chance of getting in.

Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader in any sense, even if you excuse or agree with his politics. Boris Johnson has no morals and no grasp of detail that is needed to be Prime Minister.

Do you honestly think labour won’t have policies around trying to help those who are poorest and most vulnerable? Really?
They didn't last time. Nothing in the 2017 Labour manifesto to help the poorest people. How many £billions on abolishing tuition fees which would only benefit the rich, with the added bonus of cutting university places as we've seen happen in Scotland. Guess who'd get the places? It wouldn't be bright, talented underprivileged kids. It'd be poshos like this one who didn't get good enough grades to get in www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/07/17/princess-eugenie-rejected-university-given-place-realised-royal/ . Sweeties to the kids and reinforcing undeserved privilege by HE removing access from the genuinely talented in one go. Well done, 'Labour'.

If the rail industry run by the government was such a great business and such a fantastic money making industry why did it get privatised in the first place

Tory ideology, just like austerity.

New Labour were nothing like the current Labour Party. They were so popular because they were centre right

I'd have called them centre left myself, but it's definitely true they were popular

FWIW something being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's right, but at least they got elected three times ... whereas it doesn't seem the current lot are capable of doing it even once

It's laughable that people think the Tories are good with the economy when they have added ONE TRILLION to the debt with fuck all to show for it except foodbanks and misery.

Lots of people see the Tories as the party of aspiration

Surely that should just be human nature. To want to do your best and ensure you can provide for yourself and your family whilst contributing taxes for our health and education system.

Sadly it doesn’t seem to be the case always though hence the push the change the benefits system. Surely children will benefit a lot more in the future from having aspirations to believing welfare is there to support life choices.

FWIW something being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's right, but at least they got elected three times ... whereas it doesn't seem the current lot are capable of doing it even once
This. Labour can say whatever they like. If they are unelectable, they won't be doing any of it. They may as well be a protest movement. New Labour did lots of good, as the current Labour leadership like to say when it suits them, even though Corbyn and McDonnell consistently opposed them. They also choose to completely reject them as ' not really Labour' when it suits them.

It is all very well and good saying free broadband for all but if you haven’t got broadband then you most likely don’t have a computer

Being online is essential for anyone on benefits. People not having a computer was no impediment to the government setting that up.

People do realise that there will still be Brexit under labour right? They’re not a remain party and chances are they’d want a 2/3 majority to remain in a referendum. Which is a double whammy because any businesses who were already thinking about moving some of their jobs and operations will just be incentivised to accelerate their plans of labour get in. Add to that the threat of Scottish independence and you potentially have the worst possible outcome for the country.
Yes

How can you get off welfare without good health and a good education though? A few will be able to do it without education but that is rare. Without good health, you stand no chance.

This whole 'oh I vote for the good of the people' thing doesn't work.

If everyone who was eligible to vote 1) actually voted, and then 2) voted for the party who most benefitted them individually then we'd end up with whichever government best suited the majority of people. Whoever that may be.

Labour is a car crash.

How can you get off welfare without good health and a good education though

Millions of benefits will have good health and have been through the free education system.

Those two things are needed but a work ethic and personal responsibility are more important.

Trains aren’t exactly great now Well you didn't go anywhere by train in the 1970s. Breakdowns, strikes, not being able to see out of the window because of the dirt.

so actually, it's only an extra 10% that you need to pay between £50k-£125k.

No. Once you're over £100k, your marginal tax/nic rate is 62% on income between £100-£125k. That's why loads of dentists, doctors, GPs etc have cut down their working hours. No one is going to work longer/harder just to take home 38% of the extra they earn for it.

You're also ignoring the child benefit claw back for people earning over £50k, which amounts to £2k p.a. for a typical 2 child household.

You can’t include child benefit in those calculations, that’s like including the cost of childcare.

@Deathgrip I quite agree with you about Boris Johnson. I personally don't agree with them. But I was shocked recently to hear my DSis, who was a strong Remain support, saying that she wanted Boris Johnson to win the election precisely because she was afraid of the anger that might be unleashed if Brexit didn't happen. And sadly her fears are justified, remember Jo Cox. And there are plenty of people who do feel that way. And the MPs are being blamed for obstructing Brexit.

I think they're wrong. Johnson is feeling under pressure because of Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party, so that's why he kept insisting on 31st October as the deadline, with or without a deal. He's scared to death of the Brexit vote being split and allowing Corbyn in.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

It is a very rare person who can get on in life with untreated mental illness, being a child carer to a parent because of lack of social care, dying or have a relative die of cancer due to late diagnosis or any of the other issues caused by a lack of healthcare.

Kids in care generally do worse. How many of those kids are there because their parents had substance abuse problems, caused by untreated mental health problems?

The Tories refuse to invest in services that give people hope. Without hope there is no aspiration. It's crushed before it can even begin.

Well you didn't go anywhere by train in the 1970s. Breakdowns, strikes, not being able to see out of the window because of the dirt.

So because it was poorly managed here in the 70s means it couldn’t possibly work now, despite overwhelming evidence of very effective state-run trains in other countries?

Do you understand the political and social climate around the renationalisation of the railways in the 1950s? The climate was completely different - train usage dropped dramatically through the 50s - 70s as road usage increased. There was a massive cost associated with moving away from steam and to diesel / electricity.

Huge amounts of the rail network were closed in the 60s, to making it even more difficult for people to rely on it.

Since 2001 when Railtrack collapsed, Network Rail has been funding the maintenance of the entire rail network and stations with tax payer money, thereby subsiding the profits of the the private rail operators.

There’s absolutely no reason that UK railways can’t be run just as effectively as they are now (and more so) without shareholders. A lot of work that’s done regionally and individually by private operators could be done centrally, saving money and making services more consistent.

As no one puts climate change as top of their voting agenda i'd say as a species we are pretty much screwed.

I quite agree with you about Boris Johnson. I personally don't agree with them. But I was shocked recently to hear my DSis, who was a strong Remain support, saying that she wanted Boris Johnson to win the election precisely because she was afraid of the anger that might be unleashed if Brexit didn't happen. And sadly her fears are justified, remember Jo Cox. And there are plenty of people who do feel that way. And the MPs are being blamed for obstructing Brexit.

Which is why, IMO, only labour have the correct approach to Brexit. If Lib Dem get in and revoke Article 50, i can foresee huge problems. If the tories push through Brexit with either a poor deal or no deal, the impact on the economy would be disastrous.

Saying that you’ll make sure the deal negotiated is the best available then put that deal to a vote is the most sensible option.

Of course what’s really required is for the leaders of all parties to stop worrying about themselves and come clean - they need to admit that the public voted on a complete unknown, and that now we have done the work, we are unable to reach a solution which will benefit the country overall.

That’s the truth of it. It was always going to go that way, but Cameron was far more concerned about losing tory voters to UKIP than the impact on the country.

The sad part is that almost every complaint I’ve seen from leavers is actually a result of tory policy, not being in the EU. Leaving the EU but still being stuck with the tories is the worst of both worlds.

And of course Brexit could still happen under Labour. But I trust Corbyn far more to work through the implication of Brexit in a way that won’t (yet again) penalise the poorest and most vulnerable. Given half a chance, Boris will sacrifice workers rights and the NHS in exchange for trade deals without a second thought.

You can’t include child benefit in those calculations, that’s like including the cost of childcare.

Err? It's a tax, you declare it on your tax return, you pay it either through your tax code or directly through your self assessment tax code. How on Earth could it not be included in tax calculations???

Again, you're right. I don't like Corbyn, but his approach on Brexit is the most sensible. He would negotiate a new deal and then call a referendum, with 3 options: leave with the deal he's negotiated or remain in the EU. That's completely straightforward.

Another issue is that those voters saying the politicians should just get on with it, haven't understood that there are serious reasons why that can't happen. The chief ones being the Irish border and the fact that Scotland voted strongly in favour of Remain, so they would be fully entitled to have another independence referendum.

Brexit supporters in the Tory party and the Brexit party should be careful what they wish for.

deathgrip One of my biggest issues with Corbyn is that he has had three years to work with the government and put forward some constructive ideas for whatever the fuck a “sensible” Brexit is. He could have done it as soon as it became apparent there were problems and he could still have been seen as the kingmaker in an election. But no, he chose to sit back and watch the paralysis be unleashed meaning not only could we not deal with brexit but the needs of the very people he claims he stands for couldn’t be addressed through parliament either. Not to mention the billions we’ve wasted in fucking about with contingency plans, civil service time, the lot. He’s disgraced the role of leader of the opposition, an utterly weak failure of a man who has had nothing constructive to offer the country thus far against the weakest government of our lifetime. Disclaimer again - I don’t know how I will vote yet.

And his approach is not straightforward in the slightest. Can someone define what a “sensible” is Brexit before we vote for it? No. Thought not.

Can he define what thresholds he’d want in a referendum or which side labour would support? No. Thought not.

So there’s nothing straightforward about it. It’s bullshit and all he’s trying to do is win as many votes as possible from all sides without even trying to reconcile what they all mean. Which is exactly the problem we’ve had so far. He’s a loser.