Women shouldn’t have careers...

[Jadefeather7]

Controversial title but hear me out.

Since I was a child I was always pushed to do well academically. My parents invested a lot in my education (financially and time wise) in the hope that I could have a good career & standard of living. My mother told me that she always resented being a SAHM and wanted her daughters to be working and independent. She told me how her mother refused to take on paid childcare when she asked her to retire early but she said she would help her daughters so that their lives would be different, especially as unlike her, her daughters had gone into higher education.

I’m now in a position where I have a great career but it involves working long hours. I’m on maternity leave and find myself pregnant again. I plan to go back for a few months before my next mat leave in order to stay on top of things. As I think about how I will manage I do feel quite stressed.

I have an hour long commute (there are no local jobs in my area) and I work with young, (mostly) single, childless people who have no lives outside of work. The expectation is that everyone puts in long hours. I don’t really want further profession and responsibility at this stage but I don’t want to be taking the piss either (which is what they would see doing 9-5 as)

I’m trying to figure out childcare. I think a nanny would be best although finding someone who will do a fixed term contract is tricky. My husband is against the idea because he thinks it’s throwing money down the drain. It’s a lot of money but I feel like it’s worth it to maintain my career in the long run. His job is very pressurised as well. He wants us to use a childminder. I know that would mean extra stress for me as I would have to try to rush back to do pick ups, laundry, meals etc.

I was talking to my mum about going back to work and she started trying to put me off and told me that I should become a SAHM or take an extended career break (which she knows is career suicide).I felt really upset that after everything she had dreamed off for me, that she would say that.

Most of the women I know who have demanding careers have had a lot of support from their families. I know however that there are so many of you on here who manage with paid childcare, but my mum keeps making me doubt that it’s possible. If you are one those, please tell me it’s possible?

I really love my job. It was a huge part of my life for 10 years and I feel like my family don’t value it.

I’m starting to feel like women can’t have ‘careers’ and only suit having ‘jobs’. Plenty of people seem to manage somehow doing part time 9-5 jobs.

Was it a silly idea to put so much into my education and end up in this sort of career? I feel like all my hard work will end up just being a waste of time.

Ok, so not coming out with anything useful then! Has he spoken to HR &/or his Line Manager about partial home working possibilities or any flexibilty on his standard working hours (starting/finishing earlier/later)?

The reality is it’s very hard to manage a high pressure job with children. I too have a job where it’s just not on to work 9-5. As a single parent I only survive because I have good paid help.

I think it's easy to slip into old fashioned gender roles after having children if the woman is on maternity leave, particularly if breastfeeding. My partner is very pro my career and he drops the kids off at childminder, I do pick ups, we share sick days. He could be much better with sharing housework but I do now work Pt. We have no help from family and have to use paid childcare. It's an Investments in both our careers/ security and I don't think either if us would want to change that.

I agree, outsource everything you can e.g. online shopping, cleaner to make life easier.

My husband is definitely my 'champion but then my friends and colleagues are too. They believe they can do it so I believe I can too!

I don’t know if he’s genuinely considered any of it or just trying to show that he’s all about equality

Of course he hasn't genuinely considered it. He is NOT about equality, he has to be told to pay for his own fucking kid, FFS!

I have a mother whose opinion sways what I do so I do get it. But I would say that if your self identity is tied up with your career (not unreasonably) that won’t change and you will regret not trying. Also, the previously high-flying women in my family who gave up work when they had kids, have on the whole been less happy over the years than the ones who stayed in full time work. They also found it much harder to go back as they were not prepared to ‘start again’ or take a lesser role.

I did not work full time however my childminder took children from 7-7 and I didn’t have to provide any good or a bag. She also did overnight care. It certainly sounds like you should push for a nanny though if that is what your husband agreed pre-kids.

Why do posters insist on telling her what her husband should do, he wont, end of subject, stop saying it. Women cannot have it all without burnout unless they have excellent childcare

Shouldn't the subject of this post be 'can a household sustain two careers?' Unfair to think it's the woman here? Yes we get the mat leave but he could take time or once your back and then go back to a job later

Apologies for not RTFT but I bet your DH hasn't considered what happens if he burns out or becomes ill.

I have a job I love (PhD scientist level) - when we had DD we had a nanny and then by the time she went to school I was well established at the level I wanted and dropped to half time.

A couple of years later, DH had health problems (quite probably exacerbated by work stress) and downshifted to consultancy. So, it's me who has the steady income plus benefits like health insurance for the whole family.

Why stand on one leg when you can stand on two?

Haven't had time to RTWT but here goes:

I have a career and two under-fives; in fact I've been promoted since having DC and now make significantly more money for 4 days than I used to make in 5 when I went on my first mat leave. This is possible through:

• a nanny, in this case a shared one. You could look into sharing to reduce the cost, although it certainly adds hassle and complexity. But my nanny is worth her weight in fucking gold. She's reliable, she leaves the house clean and tidy, she adores my kids, she can care for them when they're sick, she is flexible if I need extra hours. Also once you have two+ DC, a nanny can end up equivalent or cheaper than multiple nursery places.
• a cleaner. I don't want to spend my weekend scrubbing the bathroom.
• DH and I share the load. We stagger our working hours; I leave early most days before the nanny arrives and then relieve her, he does handover and comes back later, except for one day a week when we swap so that I can do later meetings/after-work drinks.

I do not recognise these laws of "part time is career suicide" and "there are no part time jobs". I just started a new job that was advertised as FT; if you have good skills it's very possible to negotiate 4 days or compressed hours for jobs advertised FT, and like many working mothers I reckon I get as much done in 4 days as I used to in 5. And as I mentioned, I've been promoted and increased my salary a lot since "going part time". Yes, it can be very difficult if you work in a crappy sexist environment, I'm not going to say that nobody pays a penalty for PT or mat leave. But it can be done, and sexism can be challenged, and there are more and more environments which are more flexible.

Get the nanny. If your husband won't commit to 50% of pickups and dropoffs, tell him it's not a negotiation. And don't put so much blame on your mum - she's a product of her time and her own experiences. It would be good if she did give you more encouragement, but you have a DH problem principally.

Oh and I have a 1hr commute into London. It can be done.

He will even mention things like shared parental leave (he knows that the maternity pay package I’m on would make that a silly choice)

Do it! Seriously. I was going to suggest this for baby 2. He needs to understand what it's like to look after 2 under 2 by yourself, and he needs to feel responsibility for their well-being in the same way you do. He needs to be the default parent for a bit.

I don't know your mat package, but most are tapered so the last couple of months aren't v well paid - could he take shared parental leave to cover those few months and you go back to work? I really feel it would pay off massively in the long run.

Incidentally, your title shouldn't be "Women shouldn't have careers" but "Men need to pull their weight with childcare".

He needs to understand what it's like to look after 2 under 2 by yourself, and he needs to feel responsibility for their well-being in the same way you do. He needs to be the default parent for a bit.

^also seconding this excellent point by LannieDuck. DH took SPL with both of ours and was at home with DS1 for 2 months. It's bloody good for a man to be the one staying behind holding the baby while his wife rushes out to work for a bit.

You need a nanny. There is really no alternative in your situation.

Have you looked at doing a job share?

@CmdrCressidaDuck out of interest what hours do you do?

I agree about him needing to know what it’s like to be the default parent. My DH started being truly helpful and understanding when I went back to work and he dropped his hours and looked after her one day a week. On the other hand I have witnessed several relationships where for work one partner (the man, in these cases) goes abroad for work lots and I’m afraid it did fall to the woman to either drop off and pick up at a nursery, or ditch her career. In the latter case this ended in divorce because she (a previous high flyer) felt like she was just facilitating everyone else’s lives and became resentful. If his work is going to be so erratic a nanny is your answer.

It's standard office hours @Jadefeather7. I arrive just after 8 most days and leave by 5 except on the day a week I come in later and can stay until 7 if needed.

I can't say what the norm is in your field obviously but I am selective about environments and go to places that believe in balance and treating people like adults. I also know that all the research shows that long hours are ultimately totally unproductive even in manual jobs. In brainwork you can only work so many productive hours a day anyway and I train myself to feel no guilt and not let anybody else make me feel guilty about doing reasonable hours. Doing reasonable hours and not working on my off day is the best thing for my employer because it's what enables me to be sustainably at my best when I work.

@CmdrCressidaDuck The culture at my place of work is very much one of presenteeism, it’s the only thing I hate about what is otherwise a really great place to work (the commute as well I guess). I would mostly leave at 6 whilst my colleagues would often stay until silly hours (sometimes even when they didn’t have much work to do). If I needed to I would sometimes work from home after having dinner but I really hated being in the office for the night and eating there so I never did that. It’s been great to work there whilst I was childfree but I probably will need to change my company when baby 2 comes along. For now I need to stick it out with them.

I think from my experience and that of friends it's not that women can't have careers. It's that it's v difficult to have 2 x full time careers and children without a lot or money for cleaners, handymen, gardeners and nannies.

Doesn't mean it has to be the woman that compromises.

I have a 9-5 type job and a 90 minute commute, but people who get promoted do way more.

I value financial independence very highly. I dislike the commute and don’t love my job. It gets easier as DC get older.

My H did his fair share of parenting/domestics, but prioritised his career and earnings over mine, and always earned more and now earns much more.

OP please do shared parental leave even if your DH ends up on statutory pay for 6 weeks. (I think that's the minimum period needed to understand about being the primary carer.) It is a learning curve that many men need and it is very worth it in the long run. Doing it apparently helps to stop relationships falling apart.

My DP thought he would have time to do random things for himself when he was looking after our LO, as I always managed to keep the place clean. He got to look after her when she was becoming mobile, vocal and sleeping less so he found himself entertaining her a lot more. There as I could move her from room to room when I was doing household chores if she wasn't sleeping.

He learnt why it took an extra hour to get ready to go out and how being organised between the two of us meant we could get out quicker. Before that he would wonder why I would get annoyed with him just doing his own thing before we left the house.

At the end of it our LO would happily call for either of us.

My DP actually looks after our LO 2 days a weeks as he works compressed hours.

Oh and tell your DH that he's taking shared parental leave even if he's on statutory pay with number 2 as it will help him bond with the baby. Make it clear you can afford it.

I would mostly leave at 6 whilst my colleagues would often stay until silly hours (sometimes even when they didn’t have much work to do).

Ugh. That's just stupid, and also unproductive - people are tired because they spend too much time hanging around the office, so they don't actually get shit done properly in their normal hours!

I can see why you need to stick it out there until your second mat leave ends, but presumably that'll be a fairly short period of months, right? So you don't have to care what they think of you leaving at a reasonable hour, because this place is not your future anyway. If you have any political capital to spend, you could also try challenging the prevailing presenteeism and point out how it damages the company's aims, although this is more likely to be effective in a larger company which will be more visible around D&I etc.

You do have to make compromises once kids are in the picture and also toughen up a bit and shrug off the opinions of people who don't matter. But it absolutely can be done. It's true though that a supportive DH is an important if not essential aspect - DH does earn more than I do (right now) but that does not mean that my career is "less important"

Dump him, get a nanny and he'll have to have the baby a few days a week giving you a break

How will he have to have the baby a few days a week? How is it possible to make/force a man to look after his child a few (or any days a week)?

A solicitor told me that you can't "make" anyone see/have their child. You can propose arrangements but they don't have to accept them. I know if I split from my husband, he would want weekends and would push for me to have the week (and all the sleepless nights before work, nursery/school runs/automatic carer if sick, automatic person to do appointments .... And he'd argue that he has the longer commute, and that he has to work away 1/2 nights every fortnight (sometimes every week) so couldn't physically have the child even if he wanted to kn those nights.

If I)whoever objected he'd say that's how his job is and if we want our maintenance ....

Like most women I was off in maternity, dud not split it with him, became the main carer, have only gone back to work part-time, an not the bread winner and he had that status quo to argue from.

*has

How will he have to have the baby a few days a week? How is it possible to make/force a man to look after his child a few (or any days a week)?

A solicitor told me that you can't "make" anyone see/have their child. You can propose arrangements but they don't have to accept them.

This.

A man like this won't share leave, step up, take the kids in the event of a split. Please. There's no way to force this person to learn what it's like to be the default parent.

To add to the chorus - nanny, and put effort into finding the right person as that’s not always easy (nannies page here good for advice).

I’ve tried this both ways - child minders and nurseries are cheaper because the ratios are higher, they do less of the full amount of caring needed (they don’t bath them, cut their fingernails, take the lead on toilet training etc) and the staff are often not very experienced. It is much easier and nicer to have dc looked after at home.

I didn’t get the childcare right and I wish I’d invested more wisely upfront, I might still have a career if I had.

Put your foot down, you know you will be the one who cares more. I don’t think many would seriously go for nursery/cm for the under 3s if they could afford a nanny.

Get that Oliver James book for your DH...