Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

neglect before brittle bones they do do this

@ caranconnor the overall picture you’ve painted there nobody would give a shit about if the OP lived in her own home. It’s nitpicking

@Inliverpool The OP has 3 kids in care. My points are aimed at where she is now, not how she got there. And yes those points are all relevant whether you own your home or rent. In particular going to child contact regularly. If you own a mansion and do not go to child contact regularly, you will not get your kids back.
The real difference money makes in neglect is that well off people can employ nannies or send kids to boarding school. They can pay people to make sure their kids are not neglected. There are well off neglectful parents, but because paid staff are meeting the children's needs, then no action would ever be taken.

Inliverpool

You need to think about the situation the OP is actually in. She has had her children removed from her by a court. If she does not or cannot respond in a way that meets the SW’s concerns she risks losing them permanently.
There is no value in people arguing the toss with other posters or SW - she complies with requirements or she loses her children.

I honestly think in these cases, the parent MUST see what the problem is and address it. Put your hands up and agree and make the change. I'm so sorry for you OP. I've seen people go through the system and its so difficult. Half the time, the genuine concerns aren't shared with the parent...so they have no clue what is really going on. And half the time, parent is in denial of the problem. Don't fight them or question them. Just do exactly as they ask. I hope it gets sorted for you OP

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude I totally agree she needs to play the game and get the children back

caranconnor you’re not wrong either

Can I just ask those posters who are adamant that the OP is willfully misinterpreting her situation to avoid responsibility for her own shortcomings have actually been in her position?

If I had a pound for every time someone has said to me about my experience 25 years ago that "They can't do / say that" I'd be a damn sight better off than I am now.

When under the scrutiny of Social Services, there are very few parents who do not genuinely self-flagellate while at the same time dealing with errors, reports that sometimes do not reflect the reality of an appointment or meeting, and accusations that you are too picky, not picky enough to the point where you feel like a complete outsider to the whole process because you are secondary to your child's best interests, and attempts to raise genuine concerns can be dismissed because of judgements made of your mental state when you are in a nightmare that causes you huge anguish and naturally will effect your emotional presentation.

Someone further up thread said something about "playing the game" and sadly that is what it becomes because the system is adversarial and based on the balance of probabilities, rather than simple clean cut facts and evidence. When the courts are involved, budgets also factor into every decision - I was pressurised to stop fighting to get my DC back because it wasn't fair to use so many resources because according to the SW there was no prospect for re-unification.

Those people fixating on the OPs potential inability or unwillingness to budget may not realise that while in the CP process one may have to be unemployed in order to be available for contact, appointments etc. It becomes expensive. My case was pre-Internet - my phone bill, plus travel expenses etc etc left me in a huge amount of debt for some years afterwards. I was extremely lucky to get a part time job with a flexible employer who became a good friend and who accommodated me to be able to attend various appointments and hearings. I can't imagine that would be such an easy task these days.

CPTSD is a common outcome for parents involved in lengthy proceedings; if they have any additional mental health issues to begin with, they are often compounded because there is no duty of care to a parent, only to the child.

Once again I say I absolutely believe children should be protected, allegations investigated, and if there is no other option, a child should be removed / adopted. However, their are some massive flaws within the system and if we really want to break cycles of neglect and abuse, breaking a parent down and sending them back into the world without any help, support or understanding of how their problems can be addressed will not achieve this.

The problem with going along with the ‘I’m/she’s/they’re trying their best’ narrative is that sometimes, unfortunately, our best isn’t good enough. They may not be for want or desire to try, but sometimes adults are just not able to provide a safe, healthy and nurturing environment for a child. And that can be hard to hear and hard to accept.

And @caranconnor is correct - my son has been diagnosed with ASD, but the diagnostic process was put on hold for 18months when I finally left his abusive dad. The consultant needed to be sure that the symptoms displayed were because of autism and not a response to the abusive environment he was in previously. I agree with that. You cannot make a ‘safe’ diagnosis when environmental factors are significantly impacting on the child.

One other thing that I would like to mention, is that sometimes SWs and other professionals may not find it easy dealing with people on a similar intellectual level to themselves. They are in a position of authority and some find any sign of dissent or challenge to be arrogant; I had three psychological assessments and one psychiatrist wrote in his report that I needed to humble myself .......because I did a load of research that backed up my view that my DCs "injuries" could have been down to a number of factors which the doctors were unwilling to investigate, and dared to present this, appropriately, via my solicitor. In fact, the view was taken that any insistence on further investigation on my part could be seen as further abusive behaviour, with a sniff of FII (or MSBP as it was known then). I couldn't prove I had not harmed my child, nor could they prove that I had - it was all down to expert opinion and the balance of probabilities.

Alot of emphasis is placed on working together in partnership with the various agencies and parents to achieve the best outcome for the child, but it really doesn't feel like that when you are experiencing it.

A FSW once said to me that it was very important that people understand that "nice middle class people" also abuse their children, which is true. She then went on to make reference to Fred and Rosemary West. Some of the thought processes involved seemed somewhat tortuous on their part.......

So being well-educated, capable of research, open and honest achieved virtually nothing even when I met every expectation, achieved every task and complied. Nothing was good enough because I wasn't humble enough.

It is correct to say that some parents, despite their best efforts, will not be able to achieve change for a multiplicity of reasons and indeed their children must be appropriately placed and supported for the best outcome.

In a volatile situation, dealing with authority that is able to decide the outcome of your entire life and those of one's children, if you receive reports with minor mistakes, and then bigger ones, can one really be blamed for nit picking when it seems that any small phrase or action can be dissected and used against one, with no thought or understanding of the stress that has generated it, yet it 'doesn't matter" if the important child in the middle of it falls victim to clerical error? Hypervigilance becomes a default for those experiencing this.

caranconnor the symptoms for a lot of conditions will be similar to neglect. If what you saying is correct, any SW who acts on that advice is massively irresponsible. The vast majority of children who are not thriving, or not meeting milestones will be doing so because of an underlying but as yet undiagnosed condition. To have someone coming in and insisting that this is not investigated by HCPs before a person with no medical knowledge satisfies themselves that there is a condition to be investigated is beyond arrogant.

I know from the experience of family members that getting a diagnosis for autism is difficult enough, and the delay makes it so much harder to help the child. To think that some children are actively being prevented from receiving help is heartbreaking.

If SW are acting in the interests of a child why would both approaches not be tried?

@SaskiaRembrandt Yours is a very good point. I could never understand why a middle ground approach could not be taken regarding medical investigations into disputed conditions etc. I think part of the problem is that once proceedings are under way, the court has to be approached for permission to instruct anyone other than the usual professionals; there is also the underlying suspicion that a parent is using a potential diagnosis to cover up their inadequacies, in which case a definitive conclusion may actually help move things forward, either by getting the child the support it needs, or helping the parent to move forward, also in the best interests of the child.

Why do you think in neglectful and/or abusive households for the vast majority it will be due to underlying conditions? Do you not think children react to their conditions they live in?

So being well-educated, capable of research, open and honest achieved virtually nothing even when I met every expectation, achieved every task and complied. Nothing was good enough because I wasn't humble enough
You're seriously saying that you meeting every expectation wasn't good enough and there was some sort of vendetta against you for being educated?

Unsurprisingly, again it sounds like you've had a tough time, this "they had a grudge or a vendetta against me" comes up again from a poster seeking to affirm to the OP that social workers and all the other allied professionals somehow all make up these conclusions

There seems to be a correlation between people who think social services are awful and people who think there's whole conspiracies against them.

I tell you what, I would love to be living and working in all these areas where social services are so underworked, so over funded and over staffed that they have kept every child safe and have time to meet with different professionals to make cases up against people for no reason.

In the Ops case, two children have been removed for neglect. The older is displaying signs of developmental delay, the younger appears to be developing within accepted parameters. If neglect was at the heart of the matter, surely both children should be showing the impact of a neglectful environment?

@Wilmalovescake wrote a great post earlier that you dismissed too quickly. I have a daughter with autism and I can see where your problem is.
They've lied/exaggerated an issue. You disagree and can't accept what they've said. They won't admit it, so the stalemate is that your ch have gone.

If you typed out each concern
Social care believe ....
And address each concern with what you do now or will do.
I cook a fresh meal for myself /children each day, I've enclosed a weeks mine to show the healthy meals including fruit and vegetables.

Sw believe my children are dirty.
I have a washing machine and wash clothes after they've been worn, and changed immediately when dirty. I dry them, iron them. I didn't used to be great about putting them away but I've since pared back their clothing to make it easier. I shower each night, the children enjoy a bath every night/ other night as part of their bedtime routine. And they wash faces and do teeth again in the morning.

In this way you're not admitting that there was a problem but you're not trying to start a fight with them either.
You will not win a fight with them, you need to find a way to look forward.

@LolaSmiles

My solicitor had to school me to stop being "me" and advised me to dumb myself down. He's now a circuit judge and very well respected. He and my barrister both agreed that due to the complexity of my case, the pressure on the LA and the SWs I was placed under greater pressure than some other parents. My case almost went as far as the High Court.

I have repeatedly said I do not hold with conspiracy theories, nor do I think there was a vendetta against me in the paranoid way you imply.

Groupthink is common in a situation like this - and if flaws and errors are made that may damage the reputation of a LA or other professionals, it is recognised that ranks will close, even subconsciously.

Going on the evidence alone, my DC should not have come home, but he did, so obviously I did meet expectations. During the proceedings however, I was often challenged for asking questions that would seem logical to most intelligent people. The first GAL actually asked who did I think I was to question eminent doctors with years of experience, who had never met me, or my son, making pronouncements about what had happened based on the opinions of others, round and round and round. All I could say is that they hadn't been there, I had and I knew I had not committed the crime of which they accused me.

Some people are difficult for SWs to deal with because they are able to analyse the evidence and paperwork and see flaws in it which can either be cleared up easily or require further examination. When you are at risk of losing your child, personal pride takes a back seat IME. I just wanted the facts; they wanted their projected outcome.

It has now been established that many things that are being used in court are no longer actual concerns. It has been confirmed that the concern re: eating is historical evidence. They are no longer actually concerned about this, but are concerned of the history.

It has also been confirmed that the issues surrounding cleanliness are historical too, rather than current.

The discussion about the developmental delay won't be resolved until after the case has concluded. I again put forward the idea of a private diagnosis, but this has been rejected, the reason given being that they aren't in my care. No speech has been noted in contact or around professionals, but FC dispute this and say she can say 4 words.

They are wanting further assessment, rather than direct action. My concern being that the sw is responsible for this, apparently nobody else is available to do this. The assessment is focusing on support networks and communication. Basically, I was told that the reason for the application was based on not working well with them and the amount of time on CP register. They are exploring the possibility of some contact in the community.

If neglect was at the heart of the matter, surely both children should be showing the impact of a neglectful environment?

Neglect does not just manifest in developmental delays.

@SeaofDespair

I'm glad to hear that there is some clarification and also contact in the community is a really good sign.

It really sounds as though things are moving in a more positive direction. It's a shame that the developmental assessments seem to be being stalled, but hopefully in time that can be explored properly too.

I wish you all the very best.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist either. But I am aware that professionals involved will sometimes cover poor decision making and persevere. There are many other people who've also experienced this. My previous solicitor said to me that often professionals can feel intimidated by those who are articulate and are able to question the concerns put forward. It's not like a police case, where they need to present CPS with their evidence. The concerns don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. There isn't a jury.

I know many children are subjected to serious abuse. This isn't right. But there have been many cases, where children who've been permanently removed, have found to have conditions causing symptoms of physical abuse.

The only thing they've said that confirm their fears of neglect actually do boil down to developmental delays. It was good that that I have evidence to show that my youngest one is developmentally fine. She also has a secure attachment to me.

They've used that as the actual outcome, of their fears of neglect, sorry.

@SeaofDespair

Very succinctly put. And also my position.

Also children are treated differently within one family all the time.
OPs child may very well have autism, I was imply explaining why an assessment may have been put on hold.